Paul M. Caffrey (00:00.602)
You're listening to the sales center podcast. My name is mark hunter the sales center We're going to talk today about the work before the work and to do that paul m Caffrey is going to be joining us now paul. I got to meet a few months ago in lithuania Yes, he and I got to hang out in lithuania But you know what maybe we'll get time to talk about that when we get into the show because you know what? The show begins right now
You're listening to the Sales Hunter podcast with Mark Hunter.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:35.202)
You're listening to the Sales Hunter podcast with Mark Hunter, where the focus is to help you as a salesman sell with confidence and integrity. And now here's your host.
You know, sometimes when you're doing a live show you get a little bit of an audio glitch But hey, you know, i'm still here because I love your audience Joining me today paul m. Caffrey paul. Welcome to the show Great to have you on and for the audience. Um, let's fill in the secret sauce You and I met when we were speaking at a conference in lithuania february of 2023 You were the opening speaker and you crushed it
And it's like, Hey, I got to get sir. Got to get Paul on the podcast. So thank you for joining me. Thank you. Hey, let, let's, let's talk about this whole piece in terms of the work before the work, what does that mean?
What it means is giving yourself a fair advantage to be ready for every opportunity that comes into your world or that you go out and find. It is as simple as that. Now, okay, that sounds simple, but does that mean from a prospecting standpoint that you, you jump up and you grab every single lead, everything that pops into your, you know, into your world? Uh, because I mean, if I did that, um, I'd never get anything sold.
Yeah, so true. And again, it is something that you have to master, like anything. And interestingly enough, most people don't like doing the work. And a lot of people are like, there's too much here to do. So OK. And then when I talk about, well, then you've got to do more work, everyone's like, oh, no, extra work. And the great news for that is it makes it easier for us. And
Paul M. Caffrey (02:31.306)
If we think about all the leads that maybe come our way from a prospecting perspective or the companies that were research, we obviously have to, if we're doing our outbound, we narrow our focus. And so when we're able to do that preparation, do that work in advance, we know who our ideal customer persona is. We know some, maybe some Brian triggers or some criteria. And we also know a little bit about them and what's important. So we're able to go out and have those conversations, or if they come to us, we do a bit of research. We're able to decide.
who we should be speaking with and as you rightly call out, Mark, maybe who we shouldn't, who we know might be better served by, you know, somebody else and we can send them in that direction. So, yeah, absolutely. It's not about being a busy fool. It's actually quite the opposite. It's about working on the opportunities that are going to give you the best chance of having a great year. Okay. You've said two really powerful things there. One is that, of course.
knowing who your persona is, kind of staying in that lane, what I call ICP, your ideal customer profile. So that's some of the work before the work, because you know who you're gonna spend your time with. And then the other piece that you said is that you're gonna do a little bit of research to really determine as to whether or not they are even worth following up on or following up with or engaging with. Here's the challenge though. A lot of salespeople say, I don't have enough stuff in my pipeline. I'm gonna talk to anybody and everybody.
You know, well, they're in the industry I sell to, I don't know, but, and people always say don't give up until you got the deal. So I'm going to spend time with them. Is there a little bit of a disconnect between those two? Yeah, there certainly is because we all know, you know, sales professionals who will, they'll keep deals in their pipeline a little bit too long or they'll work those deals that they haven't quite been qualified. However,
They've agreed to the next steps. We're going to bring them along. And in the short term, that gives you a bit of peace of mind because it seems like you've got a healthy enough pipeline. It seems like you're working deals. But when end of month, end of quarter comes along, then a lot of those deals don't happen and you lose that comfort. And you're also not going to get paid commission, everything else that comes along with that. So it is far better to be brave. Ask those brave questions and qualify early on.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:48.002)
And if those deals shouldn't be worked or if they're not real, you're much better off redirecting your time into prospecting and actually going out and finding business which will serve you because we all know a lot of people will speak to you, but they're the ones, if they're not following your process, they're probably not gonna buy from you. So, you know, don't spend all day chatting with champions. We challenge champions, see if they can get stuff done. If they can, it looks like they can get with our stakeholders involved in deals.
then maybe you're onto something. If they can't and you keep talking, talking. Yeah. You'll be super busy all the time and you'll wonder why you're not getting the results you think your hard work deserves. Yeah. Now there's a lot of things there that we could, we could spend 10 additional episodes just dealing with. And that's this whole game of keeping stuff in the pipeline. I think we all as salespeople have done that at one time or another keeps something in the pipeline because it keeps our boss happy and so forth. But.
Let's not go down any of those rabbit trails right now. Let's save those for another episode. What I want to talk about here is the work. What should some of the work be before the work? Can you give us some specifics? Yeah, 100 percent. So there, let's say that you're at a conference and you end up, you're randomly meeting somebody. And I'm all about being prepared and being ready.
Very hard to be prepared and ready if you're at an event where maybe there's a thousand delegates or even more, right? You're just going to end up in those random conversations. So when you're in that situation, a really great way to think of it is, well, that person you're speaking with, put it into your mind, what are they looking to achieve? What do you think has brought them to this conference today? Made them take a day away from the office, away from when they could be doing something else and makes this valuable for them?
And then when you've got that processed as you're starting the small talk with them, we're thinking about, well, what are they, how are they actually going to achieve that? And what you'll realize is, from that conversation kicking off, you'll notice that there's somebody speaking over here or that you spoke to somebody there. There's a vendor that they should really go and speak with. And as you look to give value, it becomes this conversation that could be just a bit of, you know, a bit mundane. What do you do? Where'd you come from? How long it take to get here?
Paul M. Caffrey (07:09.098)
into a really powerful energy exchange. And what happens when you actually end up serving people in those conversations, they start thinking of you and they want to serve you and they want to give you value as well. And then one thing on top of that, you will spark a great conversation. And that's when you part ways. Maybe you exchange business cards, you share your LinkedIn details. And if it seems like there could be a fit there, you arrange, well, we'll grab a virtual coffee another time.
And then you can speak to as many people as you can at that conference, as opposed to, you know, maybe spend a 40 minutes speaking with that person and then realizing, yeah, it's not quite a fit. And I've actually wasted a lot of my time at that event itself. So that's one way that you can get ready for opportunities that you're maybe not expecting. Now you just shared a very interesting networking. You showed a very interesting networking strategy that, you know, don't spend all your time with that one person, but just get them to the point where you can get the next meeting with them, then move on to somebody else.
And I like that because it does. It allows you to take full advantage of the opportunities you have while you're there. Here's the other piece though. You really did say that you had to do your homework before you got there to really help you understand. And there's something that I found that when I do take the time to do a little bit of research about who's going to be at that networking event, who's going to be, or, or what industry I'm dealing with, whatever I do, a lot of speaking. And, and I got to bone up on the industry. I got it.
but that's some of the work before the work, but it allows us to come across a lot more intelligent. Now, here's the challenge. Why don't more salespeople do this?
Paul M. Caffrey (08:54.862)
comes down to one thing. It is an extra level of work that people don't think of doing. And here's the interesting thing. Why do why do most people not think about this? We've all met top performers throughout our career, people we've seen operating, we're like, they are incredible. And then it's like, OK, what do you do? Like, how are you doing this? I mean, the means which I don't understand it. And they just look back at you and they smile and they go.
I sell, this is sales, that's what I do. And what's happening is there's habits that have become so ingrained in these sales professionals that they don't realize they're doing them in pretty much every single interaction in one form or another. And they can't even explain it or share it. So you're left in the position of not being any wiser. So for example, you're maybe not getting told, you know, if you ask a top form, what do you do at networking events? I speak to people. Oh, okay.
Well, so do I, but maybe then it's getting into how many people are you speaking with? How's that conversation being molded? And the key thing then is if you've got people that you're going to follow up with, that gives you a chance to actually do a little bit of research on them and see, well, where do they factor? Who are the people we should be going after straight away? And who are the ones that maybe, maybe they go into our nurturing track or maybe we pass to our marketing team to look after as opposed to us taking it on. OK, so from a prospecting perspective, how much time should we spend?
doing the work before the work, before we actually pick up the phone, make the phone call, send the email, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, is there a ratio of time that you have? What would that look like? Well, the reality of it is it varies depending on the impact that work is going to have for you, right? I actually very like, I really like one of the ratios you speak about in your prospecting book.
of the 21% and 7% has spent research and 14% is spent actually doing the prospecting. So that's kind of maybe working about nine hours a week there or thereabouts. Really, really like that. When we're looking at prospecting, however, a way for you to think about that, that is a really great brand to start off with. But are you selling something which is maybe only a couple of grand and you're looking for a lot of big transactions or are you looking to sell to one or two enterprises this year?
Paul M. Caffrey (11:18.662)
In which case, you're probably going to go prospect three or four companies, if even. So the amount of time you put in is relative to the payoff that you're going to get out of that. So let's play that through. Let's imagine you're working in SMB or in a commercial business in a tech company or somewhere along those lines, maybe there's a 7800k target that you're going after. I mean, ideally, you're looking at one to three hours of prospecting per day in that average scenario and the first hour really being building that list of people to go after.
then crafting that message. And how do we craft the message? We look at the individual we're going after, have they said anything online? Is there any comments out there? Is there anything that we've seen on social? Then it's looking at the business, what's going on, trends there. And if we can't find anything at that point, we're looking at the industry. So what trends are happening, what changes are there? And that gives us something to personalize and kick off the outreach with. Yeah, hey, I like what you're saying there because
The amount of time we spend doing the work before the work is going to depend upon the type, the size of opportunity that we're going after. I'm going to share, share a story. I was talking with, with an individual and he was sharing with me and his particular company that he just closed a massive deal, a 40 plus million dollar deal, and there was another person in the company who had closed a deal that was worth more than $100 million. Wow. Now.
It was very interesting though, this person who closed the $100 million deal, she had one account, one account, that account. So she was absolutely 100% dialed in, focused on it, but she was able to land a $100 million account. Now stop and think about this for a moment. The amount of work that she was doing before the work, absolutely, I'm sure day in, day out, day in, day out, doing all this incredible research, but it landed.
an unbelievable opportunity. Conversely, this person who landed the 40 plus, he said it worked out for several years. And yes, I mean, it just credible amount, but here's the challenge and curious if you have a thought on this, because I've worked with companies where we've worked with people and you get them all the way down and then you find out there's no opportunity there. How do you create signals? So you're doing the work before the work.
Paul M. Caffrey (13:43.83)
that, okay, you know what, this work just isn't going to pay out. I mean, do you, do you have any signals there that you can look for? Well, I guess one of the key things, um, is when we were looking at the research, look, we know there are certain criteria that, you know, companies can say or do, or is happening in the background. That's, you know, those signals that we can see in the background.
or online. But then the other side of it is, I think this is crucially important, even if you are, okay, you've got that, that's super enterprise account, but even right the way through is getting a couple of different points of view from an account. So before you actually turn around and say, this account isn't worth our time, that you've spoke to two or three people within and you've got a very good reason that you can stand over as regards why it is not worth investing in. And you're probably more looking at
Yeah, it's less likely, it could happen, it's less likely to happen, or actually these accounts is more likely to happen with. And so for me, it is looking at speaking with people. And I guess if we play through, you know, you know, an example, you want to bring in a transformational project, you've got a champion who is, you know, is keen for it. And early on, very important, who else is going to be involved in this? Who else?
will feel left out if they're not part of the process. So you're mapping out what that stakeholder piece looks like. And then even just simply offering a 15 minute chat with those different stakeholders to find out, are they pro, do they not care, or are they completely against it? And if that person that you come across is completely against it, we realize we're probably never gonna be able to change this department or this person, or they're gonna be able to veto or block. Then we're in the position of maybe moving on as opposed to, you know.
The work before the work isn't just preparing for that main discovery or that main sales session. Sometimes there's those side conversations with other people and that's where you can actually realize, guys, maybe this isn't worth six months of work. Maybe this isn't worth all of our solution engineers and all of that resource we're gonna throw in. Maybe we should move away from it. And so really, I would be looking at points of view from people in the accounts before walking away. Okay, you just raised a... You just raised a...
Paul M. Caffrey (15:57.422)
great issue that I want the audience to really pay attention to. Go back and catch the last couple of minutes, what Paul's been talking to, because he said this big account, you're going to get, you know, the work before the work is actually engaging with the account, but you're engaged with the account to find out if there is work there that you can do. And and I love that because so many people say, oh, I do the work before the work. And then they throw themselves blindly.
Into an opportunity that never materializes and really what you're saying is i'm going to do the work And part of the work is really kind of having some investigative calls To really get those other opinions get those other views from people within that company To know whether or not this is worth pursuing That is absolutely key if you if you listen to this Are in anywhere close to dealing with a larger account? please
Heed what paul just talked about it's absolutely gold because it's going to prevent you From getting too far down because I see salespeople what they do Is they want to hunt the whale they want to go after the whale, you know, or the elephant will say And the problem is they starve to death Waiting to slay the elephant or get or get the whale they starve to death because what happens is that they get all the way down and
There's nothing there to eat. There's nothing there and they got to go back to square one What you're saying is find out if that opportunity is there to begin with hey Absolutely gold now. We only got a few minutes left here and I want you to share with the audience We're talking about the work before the work Is there a model is there a blueprint? Is there a process? That you think the listening audience should be following There absolutely is and it
It comes down to really a thinking framework or a number of different questions. So a chance encounter, you're thinking of, you know, what's that person looking to achieve? How are they going to achieve that? As we've already mentioned, we're looking to speak to maybe a potential customer on a discovery call, a qualification call or an account that we're looking to potentially work a bit more. We go a little bit deeper. So it's, you know, what are they looking to achieve? What's the current situation? What's the decision making process?
Paul M. Caffrey (18:20.078)
So we start thinking about that in our head very, very quickly. We start formulating views on this account. And then when we speak to it, we can actually see if that is right or if it's wrong. And then we can take it a step further by going, well, how are they going to achieve this? How are they going to progress their desired outcome? So what would that journey actually be like? What mode of milestones be? And then how would they measure success? But importantly, we've got a few different lenses to look at that through. So it's the point of view of our prospect, of our customer.
Very importantly, it's from our point of view, is this what our time to work on? Is this what we should be focused on? And then it's everybody else. So who are the other stakeholders? So maybe it's your VP, maybe it's investors on your side, maybe it's investors on the other side of the fence, or maybe it's different departments in the business that you're actually looking to sell to, whatever that might be, who could those other stakeholders be? And you end up in a situation where you end up a far more rounded view of an account. And...
This even goes as far as your own career. If you're thinking of, well, where do you want to be working next year? If you don't start working on that in advance, you know, you'll probably get there maybe in a year or two, it'll come along. But when you're proactive with it, things happen a lot faster. And again, this thinking framework can be applied to, you know, pretty much every aspect of sales. And that's the whole idea behind it, because too many of us just throw ourselves into these situations. We've tried to be helpful. We've tried to offer value. We're not being strategic in our thinking. And it-
makes us more busy and maybe slows us down from being focused on what we really need to be doing to actually speed up. I like how you frame that because the work before the work is not necessarily about doing more work. It's about being smarter in the work that you're doing. And I also love that thing in terms of getting additional stakeholders. Cause so many times, again, what I see is people go in and they want to get this big account, but to go in with one person, big, big mistake.
Hey, Paul, it's been absolutely terrific having you on the show. Tell the audience a little bit about how people can get in touch with you and quick in terms of what it is that you do. Absolutely, so I'm the sales preparation expert. You can reach me on LinkedIn, preferred platform of choice. So Paul Caffrey on that. And what I do is I help sales professionals find more customers.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:42.394)
and sell and sell more, essentially making you more efficient and more effective. So if that's something that you're interested in finding out a bit more about and actually taking what you're doing and supercharging that, then I'd love to have a conversation. And to make that even easier for 10 listeners, I've put forward, if you go to paulcaffrey.com forward slash hunter, I've got 10 one-on-one sessions, put aside.
So I'd love to speak with people and look to help you actually strategize how to improve your sales strategies and the outcome of that session, because let's face it, we sell outcomes is you will end up with a documented process to improve how you sell. So that's something you'll be able to take away from that conversation as well. Wow. What a great offer to the audience. Thank you so much for sharing that Chris. It's only for the first 10. So if you downloading this podcast, if you're a subscriber, this is why it pays to be a subscriber because you get the podcast first.
jump on it, jump on it and take advantage of that offer. I love it that you're the sales preparation expert. So thank you so much for being on the show. You've been listening to the Sales Hunter podcast. The Sales Hunter podcast is all about helping you see and achieve what you didn't think was possible. My name is Mark Hunter, the Sales Hunter. Each week you get two episodes, one, a longer one like this where we do a little deeper dive with a sales expert and a second episode each week where it's just about a five, six minute.
Message from me on a single topic. What is it all about? It's again helping you sell more efficiently and effectively And what does that allow you to do allows you to influence and impact more people? That's hopefully what I've done for you here today. Hey do us all a favor Subscribe rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app. I'm mark hunter the sales hunter. This is the sales hunter podcast
