Paul M. Caffrey (00:01.912)
I'm delighted to be joined by Kristy Johns. We're going to be speaking all about her new book, Selling Your Way In. Kristy, how are you? How's it going?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (00:11.35)
Paul, thank you so much. It's great to meet you. I'm excited for today's conversation.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:15.928)
Yeah, me too. And I know your book is obviously dropping in August. The fact, you know, the playbook for setting your income and owning your life. I think a lot of people that's going to resonate with them.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (00:30.646)
Yeah, I hope so. Um, I think a lot of people aren't setting their income or owning their life for a variety of reasons, um, that I speak about in the book, but I, I really have seen a lot of sales professionals over the years, I think put themselves in the wrong role. Um, there are so many sales roles out there. I don't, you know, and I don't think that everybody always knows what all of their options are. But I say in order to really maximize your income and own your life, you know, you need to pick the right role in the right company, selling the right product or service in the right industry.
and you need to work for the right boss. And so that's a lot of variables to get right.
Paul M. Caffrey (01:05.028)
Yeah, absolutely. And let's face it, a lot of the time when people are going for jobs, they are, you know, they're going for what they can get. And then half the time, when somebody moves from one role to another, it's someone else's idea. It's a manager tapping you on the shoulder. It's someone saying you should be moving there or it's an external recruiter reaching out, going, there's this great new company for this whatever. So how do people get more intentional about this?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (01:32.234)
Yeah, I think it starts with self-awareness. So the kind of the first whole section of my book is all about, I call it know yourself before you get to know the prospect. And I think you need to understand sort of, you know, I call it your sales superpowers, your sales secret weapons. How do you like to be compensated and rewarded? You know, are you someone who, you know, wants the pat on the back and you want to be the number one, you know, representative in the company, or is it really all about money or is it really all about lifestyle? And so I think.
You made a very good point. People's careers are mostly reactive and not proactive. They're not putting the plan in place and then working towards that plan. I think you'll see that top 10 percenters do that, and that's what I talk a lot about in the book, is what separates the 90 and the 10. I think a lot of that is intentionality, it's self-awareness, it's a lot of things. But...
I, um, you know, that book, the accidental sales person, right? That's true. Um, almost 60% or more of people who are in sales say they never intended to be in sales, like that was not a conscious choice.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:38.744)
Yeah, it's so true and it happens again and again. When we're looking to understand what we're driven by or what motivates us, what questions should we ask ourselves?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (02:54.09)
Yeah, I have a whole list of questions. And I think it starts with, you know, what do you do better than other people do? What comes easy to you, but seems hard to others? What do people come to you for advice about? That's probably your superpower. Maybe your secret weapon is also buried in there. You know, what do you love to do? You know, what have you gravitated towards even over the years? You know, what are your hobbies and side hustles? Those are probably your passions.
Um, but I think everybody identifying, I just did a keynote, um, actually for crunch base in San Diego last month. And we talked about that, like, how do you identify and then develop hone pressure test and leverage your superpowers so that you can unleash your full potential. And I think, you know, we spend so much time and again, those of us who own businesses and you know, this, um, we spend so much time working in the business, we don't work on the business.
And I don't know that, you know, if you're a sales professional, you might not think about you yourself as a business, but you are. And so how much time are you spending working on yourself as opposed to working in the situation that you're in? And I really do, you know, in spending all of these years managing and leading and working with top performers, you can see the difference. Like they're, you know, those people are intentional. They understand they're asking themselves and even friends and family. You're not sure what your superpowers are. I bet the people closest to you know.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:20.14)
Yeah, absolutely. And probably the easiest way to do that is actually to ask them. So it can be as simple as an email, which you would probably cringe and won't want to send, but you'll be very surprised what people come back with. And that can definitely help steer the ship in highlight areas where, look, maybe you're meant to be an enterprise seller. Maybe you're supposed to manage an SMB team and keep that, you know, that those high velocity sales happening. So, so many different ways you can sell that as you call out. Now.
Before we were chatting about, before we got started, we were speaking a little bit about how you got into sales. I thought it was really interesting. It would be great if you could share a little bit more about that.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (04:57.366)
Hmm?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (05:02.058)
Yeah, my parents owned a Coldwell Banker real estate franchise in Kansas. And my dad was the owner broker and my mom quit teaching after 13 years. She was an English and a Spanish teacher. And after my dad had gone into the business, into the real estate business, she got her license over one summer break and what taught one more year and then never went back. And so I affectionately say in my book that I got my, my MBA at the kitchen table.
Money was a very transparent topic in our family, which was really unusual. But I knew what my dad was making. I knew every commission check my mother was taking. I knew if my dad wasn't taking a paycheck so he could make payroll for his employees or cover my mother's quarterly taxes. Our conversations around the dinner table revolved around buyers and sellers and listings and all things business. My parents were also very involved in the real estate community. Both were president of the Kansas Association of Realtors at different times.
And so that's sort of the environment my brother and I grew up in. And my brother grew up to be a very successful individual contributor. I happened to take my father's path into sales leadership. Um, but that was really the first taste was just, you know, again, organically being immersed in that world. Um, and I affectionately would tell anybody who listened that I would never want to own my own business. Um, the real estate business is very volatile and, you know, and not for the faint of heart, you know, real estate market is up and down and.
and it's a really hard way to make a living. But I'm eight years into owning my own business, so jokes on me.
Paul M. Caffrey (06:34.976)
Yeah, I was just thinking that as you said that, hang on a second. Yeah, so eight years in, you've obviously had ups and downs along the way. For people listening under our, you know, people who are working in real estate, both as owners and as individual contributors. Yeah. I think it's a field which is full of great sales professionals because it's very competitive. What are the two or three things that you think people working in that industry today, you know,
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (06:37.634)
Hahaha!
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (06:58.126)
That's right.
Paul M. Caffrey (07:04.269)
What skills should they hone?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (07:07.146)
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is persistence. So again, you know, we were in the real estate business way before the internet. Right. And so when my mother wanted to get in and didn't have a book of business, if you will, or prior clients to lean on, she did what we called phone duty. So I remember she spent weekends literally sitting in the office, waiting for the phone to ring, because people would have to call to learn about houses back in the day before the internet. And, and, you know, she, she held open houses for other agents.
who couldn't, you know, if they had three or four listings that she would volunteer to do that. So I mean, she really did a lot of what I'll call free consulting or free work in order to try to build her book of business. So I think, you know, and I say this about almost any sales profession, I, you know, I love the new generation. I call them the zillionials. I've combined the Z and the millennials, which probably irritates them. But I say it's the three year mark.
you know, if you know, when you leave a company before the three year mark, you put all of that work in and I think real estate is a prime example of that. I think a lot of people drop out before the end of year three, because it is hard. But if you put all that work in to, you know, prospect and build your book of business and hold open houses and listings and all of that, and it is a super competitive environment. But at the three year, you know, that for beginning of that four year mark, like you've probably if you've done all the right things up until then, then the phone should start to ring for you.
instead of you having to make the phone, the outbound call. The inbound call should start to come for you. And so I think particularly in real estate, it's this dictativeness, right? It's, and again, it's 100% commission business, so it's not for everyone. But my mom had an assistant at some point who needed a more steady income. And my mom went through a couple of assistants that kind of...
got their feet wet underneath her and learned through a top agent in town. So, I think it's all about the work, it's all about the relationships as well. I mean, it was a, being a child of real estate professionals was a hard life for us as kids because, my mom was showing houses and listing houses on nights and weekends when everybody was not working. And so, we went from having her home by 3.30 every afternoon and every weekend, holiday and summer, to my dad picking us up from school
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (09:26.54)
as to the orthodontist and softball practice and baseball practice and the like. But my family retired on that money. My parents built a house, but had a house on a lake. We had a boat. That's why I talk really about owning your own income and owning your life because the choices that you make, my parents could have easily gone into a sales position that was a base plus commission job. But what they did was super risky, but it paid off.
you know, not every year, right? But the good years will outweigh the bad years and they built themselves a really nice retirement nest egg.
Paul M. Caffrey (10:04.556)
Yeah, and look, that's what it's all about. And you can become professionally rich by working as an individual contributor in a sales role. And you can also do it by owning your own business. So there's multiple different ways to get there. As you say, you need to know what that is and you need to know what you're aiming at. And I think people listening.
are you on track to actually hit a certain number or to achieve that freedom or whatever it is? And a lot of people are like, I'm not even sure what I'm working towards. So people will have to take a step back and think about that. One more question on the real estate before we look to move on. And that is looking at, if you're managing, let's say some individual contributors within a real estate team,
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (10:35.342)
That's right.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (10:41.792)
Oh?
Paul M. Caffrey (10:54.288)
What can you do if some of them are maybe having a little bit of a tough time or maybe not closing the deals that they would like? How can you help that individual?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (11:03.946)
Yeah, I mean, I think back to kind of some of the things that my dad did. First off, he was a trainer, right? And he brought in other real estate trainers. So, you know, I also say to sales professionals, real estate or not, if you're not being provided sales training and, and I can go down a whole rabbit hole here, if you'd like Paul about the art of sales is being lost by the science of sales and the data. But if you're not being provided sales, soft sales, soft skills training, like the art of sales.
then it's your responsibility to go get that for yourself. It would be nice if your company and your sales leader provided that for you, no matter what industry you're in. But if that's not the case, then you need to hold yourself accountable to getting the kind of experience and training that you need. I think the other thing that my, I know my dad's spent a ton of time on motivation.
Um, because there's a lot of rejection in sales and there's a lot of rejection in real estate because of the competitiveness of the business. And it's a little bit of who, you know, kind of situation. Um, but my dad, I remember a couple of times over the years and it was a secret Santa kind of thing in the office, but my dad would leave little colored index cards on people's desks with a Hershey kiss when he, like he caught them. He's been a lot of time trying to catch people doing it right.
And so when he heard through the great mine, my dad was a manager who walked, he managed by walking around. He had a nice big office, but he wouldn't, very often when I walked into the building, he wasn't in his office, I had to go track him down, because he walked around the office and overheard stories and was hearing people on the phone and those types of things. And so that night after everyone would be home, he would sneak back into the office and leave these little motivational cards and congratulations things with a little piece of candy on them.
And honestly, it became kind of a cult thing because nobody could figure out who was doing it. Of course, he swore up and down that he didn't and we knew that he was. But he did that a couple of times. We owned that real estate company for 30 plus years, 40 plus years. But I think that it's also our responsibility as sales leaders to motivate and inspire. And so I say we can't motivate the unmotivated, but we can inspire the self-motivated.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (13:11.066)
And so, but sometimes as a new sales rep and a new real estate agent, those are hard months. Those first few months are really hard. And in real estate, you're probably not making any money. You've just spent a lot of money on your real estate license, on buying signs and becoming part of the association and MLS fees. So I think early on, it's a lot about not just training, but also a lot about like, you can do this, like motivation, getting behind them, giving them some support.
Paul M. Caffrey (13:41.716)
Yeah, so much great advice there. And I think if you're taking ownership and having to improve yourself from a sales perspective in the real estate world, a really great place to start is the co-author of the work for the work with me is a guy called Phil M. Jones. And he's got a book called Exactly What to Say, which really helps you make every conversation count. And that actually is doing really well for real estate agents who are picking it up and improving their conversations. So side note, that's something to check.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (13:59.808)
Ah.
Nice.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (14:10.302)
Nice. Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:11.65)
out if you are in the position to improve your own skills. Okay, well, I suppose from there, bringing things back to present day, you're in the position of working with a lot of startups and a lot of founders who are on that journey from zero to five million.
which is a really tough time for anybody going from founder led sales to having the first few sales people in play. So I guess if we jump back to once, let's say a founder just starts their two or three months in, maybe they have a small bit of seed funding, maybe they don't, they're bootstrapping. From a sales perspective, what would you recommend a founder in that position do?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (14:34.608)
Mm-hmm.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (14:59.318)
Yeah, I mean, I love I believe all startups should be founder led initially, because that's how you really learn about your product. Again, is your baby ugly? Or can we put a big bow on it and make it prettier? But I love you know, I think every founder should be should be the first salesperson, because they birth the baby, right? I mean, they probably are a tech founder, they may have, you know, built it themselves or had friends to help them or, you know, some sort of development. But this is their baby and their idea.
And they need to go out into the world and get some feedback on that to make it better. Um, you know, I mean, the product will evolve over time. There'll be, you know, improvements and roadmaps. Um, but the beta version, you know, taking that out and, and showing that to other people and getting some feedback, I think is truly important, but I also think, you know, you need to know when to step away because the majority of the founders I work with are tech founders and have, do not have a good, strong sales or marketing background. And so at some point they have to also know when to.
when to hand the baby over to the adoptive parents and let the sales professionals take over. But you have to have established your ICP. You have to understand your personas. You have to know the business problems that you're solving. You have to know the objections. So, you know, one of the things that I do is come in and help build out that first playbook and all the sales processes, get the CRM customized and up to snuff. But...
you know, I've got to get it out of the founder's head, but actually that's the stage I love coming in. Normally I come in around the million dollar mark, they may have just gotten some seed or series A funding, and I have to get all of that information that they've learned over the past year or two out of their head and onto paper, because it's almost impossible to bring, you know, we don't want to set any sales professional up for failure by not having documentation around what we know works, but then we need to have a sales professional that can take that to the next level, because
What you purchase or what you built it for may not be the only use case, may not be the only industry that could benefit from it. It might not be the only persona that could benefit from it or that, maybe you think it's for mid-sized companies, but enterprise could also benefit from it. But you have to start somewhere. I always say like you can't boil the ocean. We don't have enough financial or human resources. So getting really specific. I'm working with a group of organizations now. I'm a coach through a company out of
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (17:16.21)
accelerator out of Indianapolis called GrowthX. And we're right now going through the ICP exercise. And I finally got one of my companies to say, okay, we're just gonna look in Columbus, Ohio, and in what's Oh, in Chicago, because we have people who are actually boots on the ground there. And so yes, their product could benefit everyone across the United States or probably even the world. But you know, you I always say like, let's just start by owning our own backyard.
But really getting that narrowed in is really critical because you only are one person, if you're founder led selling, and if you're not, you're probably two or three people, and you still can't tackle everything. So really narrowing your ICP down to something that's, you know, that maybe literally is like 300 or 400 companies where you could really spend time going after just three or 400 companies instead of 30 or 40,000 companies. Like that spray and pray method has never worked.
Paul M. Caffrey (18:11.628)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you. And a nice way I think of measuring this for founders at that stage is, do you feel uncomfortable at the size of the market you're actually targeting? And if you don't, you're probably going too wide. And I guess the spray and pray method has changed with all the changes which Google and others are bringing in as well.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (18:26.601)
Mm-hmm.
Paul M. Caffrey (18:34.212)
When, at what point do you think founder led selling or founder should look to bring in salespeople? Is there a number of customers you think they should bring on a revenue threshold or any guidance that you give?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (18:47.498)
Yeah, I mean, I think once you've validated your hypothesis, so that's probably somewhere between the half million and the million dollar mark, depending on your average sale. So yeah, you've probably got 10 to 20 customers, you know, like founder led selling is all about validation. It's all about making sure that you, you know, I built it for this. Do those people agree with me that this is a solution that solves their problem? Um, and so.
Yeah, I mean, I think as soon as you can, right, as soon as you have 10 or 20 customers and they all start to look alike, that's the other thing. A lot of times I walk into a company and those 10 or 20 customers are all over the board. So that means we haven't really nailed our ICP yet. And I understand the need to take revenue. But I really think it's 10 or 20 customers when you've done it two or three times when that when three or four of those customers all look alike.
And we go, okay, that looks like that's our ICP. These others are tertiary use cases, fringe company, fringe situations. And we were happy to take their money, I know we were. But if you've done it three or four times when it looks the same and works the same, then I'm like, okay, now I think we can go and say to a sales professional, hey, these are our people, this is our ICP, these are our personas, this is the industry, this is the size company.
And then we built a list of four or 500 of those companies and let's go after those
Paul M. Caffrey (20:14.432)
Yeah, I think that's great advice, Christian, particularly when you think about founders, when they're selling to somebody. Number one, it's cool to be talking to the founder. There is a bit of a buzz about that. You like to be supporting a new business. So there's a little bit of excitement there as well. But then the other side is very easy for a founder to pivot on the road map and to agree to an integration or whatever that might be. And if a salesperson says, yeah, we'll do that.
Number one, they shouldn't say it, but number two, they're probably not going to be trusted anyway. People are like, yeah, okay, I'm sure. And then the other side of that is, it's very important to have, as you say, lookalike customers on board because you're sales first. And even if it's your first sales hire, they won't get the good grades the founder gets. They won't get the, you will need to have better customers, you will need to have some case studies because nobody wants to be the guinea pig and they really don't want to be the guinea pig.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (20:44.734)
Right.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (21:02.51)
That's correct.
Paul M. Caffrey (21:10.956)
if it's a salesperson providing it to them, as opposed to the founder. So some really, really sound advice there. And I'm, I'm guessing when you're coming in and people have, they've got that series aid, they've, you know, they've had success, they've probably got it. They can always look to improve their ICP product market fit is always a change in thing. However, you can have a hold of a certain point in time. I'm guessing you're then helping them build out sales teams. So what does that look like?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (21:39.314)
Yeah, I after a couple years in business, I got tired of walking into these early stage startups and seeing that the founder had mis-hired. And really, I mean, it's hard because they're not, you know, they're tech founders, they don't have a sales or marketing background, and sales professionals are professional interviewees. So buyer beware. And so I kept saying to people like, you know, like you hired a farmer and you need a hunter. And you know, finally, somebody said to me, well, if you think you can do a better you do it. And I'm like, okay, I will.
Um, so I offer what I call hiring help service. So, you know, we're not a staffing company. We don't source, we don't charge a percentage of a salary, although of course we charge, but I literally project manage the hiring process for people. And it's because, you know, a lot of tech founders don't, I mean, it looks good on paper, of course the sales professionals going to interview while they sell themselves every day, but they didn't really know how to dig deep enough to find out whether, you know, what's on paper is really true or not, or whether they're a good startup fit. Cause
I say my Christy-ism for that is if you're in startups, you need to be more willow than oak because there's a lot of pivoting and the wind blows all the time. And if you are a rigid and you need a standard operating procedure, that's not a good, I mean, startup fit isn't for everyone, for sure. So I think, you know.
I really try to help them. I literally, I lead the interviews. You know, I do everything from write the job description to the offer letter. My team and I, you know, we go through and vet them and do the phone screens and then include the founder in the interview process, but I lead those interviews. If nothing else, I wanna teach them the difference between, you know, a top 10% or in the other 90. So, you know, I think it's really hard for a founder to do this on their own. I'm in helping a...
former client right now with their first VP of sales search. Um, and you know, we're really, um, trying to refine the process because they wanted to move really quickly. And I, and I discouraged that. I said, this is the one of the, you know, after you've hired the first couple of sales reps, which they have, this is the most important hire. And you want this person to be around for three years. You need stability at this stage of the company. And so, you know, I've asked them to kind of slow the process down so we can dig a little deeper.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (23:52.626)
Um, with the candidates that are coming through, but it like, you know, those are, those are the most important things. And I would throw in here, by the way, that we in SAS B2B SAS startup world love to hire the VP of sales as the first hire. And I discouraged that first off, if it's a true VP of sales, they don't want to sell, you know, the play, you know, I wrote a blog post a long time ago and
And Paul, I hope you can appreciate this because we talked a little football before we got started. But I wrote a blog post a long time ago that said, if player coach is such a good idea, why isn't the NFL doing it? Right? People have specialties and either you're a leader, I truly believe this. I believe in the DNA, you're either a leader or you're an individual contributor. And to ask somebody to do both is setting them up to fail on one side of that coin.
And so, you know, your first hire could easily be a lot of times I recommend the first hire via BDR and STR to go get appointments for the founder to make that part easier because now they've, you know, they've exhausted their Rolodex, but they still want to do a little more selling, but they're never going to, you know, they're never going to prospect. They probably have very poor follow-up, um, you know, habits. So, you know, bring in maybe somebody that can help you get appointments. Or the other thing is you're going to have to bring in the first time as a full cycle seller.
Right. Someone who's going to be willing to prospect and close. A lot of times we don't have the money for a BDR or two and an AE or two. So you might need a full cycle seller. Um, but, but I hate that our world. Like, and again, I I'm blaming the VCs for this because I hear this from VCs all the time, like, let's go get a player coach. I'm like, people aren't player coaches. Right. I mean, I look at my family situation, as I mentioned earlier, you know, my brother and I sat at the same kitchen table every night for all of those years.
And he took an individual contributor path and thinks I'm crazy. And I took a leadership path and think he's crazy, you know, and we all grew up the same way with the same DNA and hearing the same stories, but what my mother was talking about resonated with my brother and what my dad was talking about resonated with me. So I think there's a lot of pitfalls hiring your first few sales reps, but I would encourage you of nothing else to take your time if it takes two to three.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (26:05.334)
to find the right first leader or the right first sales professional, take that time.
Paul M. Caffrey (26:12.364)
Yeah, couldn't agree more with you. And I guess if you're going to go down that, that player coach route, um, that person is going to be conflicted. You know, if we play out what's going to happen, there's going to be inbound leads coming and in the interest of fairness, you're going to have to give them to the people you're managing as well as yourself. However, in the interest of success of the company, really the best seller should be getting the best leads, which means that you should be taking it. And, and again,
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (26:24.607)
always.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (26:38.626)
That's right.
Paul M. Caffrey (26:41.572)
You know, things start to the faster development and move on. So I think very, very sound advice there, you know, hire specialists for each of the specialist roles and yeah, I couldn't agree more. Why would somebody who's been a VP of sales, maybe managing managers want to come in and start again, you know, and the reality is they probably don't, they're probably financially well set and you are more than likely in danger of losing that person in, I suppose the medium term. Now, if we.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (26:48.333)
Yes.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (26:58.606)
That's right.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (27:04.375)
Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:11.136)
I guess if we jump back onto your book, you know, selling your way in, I noticed that you've had a forward is going to be provided by Mike Weinberg and obviously new sales simplified. It's I suppose become a bit of a classic book. It's quite old now in the terms of books, but it was one which I've really enjoyed and I've went back to. What was it like working with Mike on the book?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (27:21.058)
Yes.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (27:26.061)
it.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (27:35.446)
Yeah, it was great. And he's been amazing. I shared with you before we pushed the start button that I met Mike by happenstance in the first year of my consulting, literally before client. Like he was working with my third, what became my third client. And he was looking to step out. And so that's how I stepped in and he mentored me for the first year. You know, Mike is the most generous person I know, but also he's full of tough love.
And so when I called him and told him about the book and I was starting to look at publishers, he asked me some really hard questions about why go with a publisher, why not self-publish, what about hybrid? And so he has really pushed me on the cover. He's like, don't settle. Ironically, I don't know if this is a secret or not, but Mike did not, Mike did not.
like the cover of New Sale Simplified. And he said, it still bothers him today. Um, but he had, but he had turned over his rights to the publisher and the publisher said, we like it and doesn't matter if you don't. Um, and so he's really pushed me and I, and I picked a publisher as a result of, of having more control over certain things like that, because he had said, you know, you give up a lot of things when you sign with a publisher. And so his advice continues to be invaluable.
Um, and I really have, uh, I've met Larry Levine through him and Larry and I were on the phone yesterday, just catching up. Um, selling from the heart is also an amazing, amazing sales book. And Larry's got a new book coming out. Um, literally we're, we're using the same publisher. So Morgan James publishing is our publisher and Larry's book is dropping a week before mine in August. So Larry's book will drop on the 13th and mine will drop on the 20th. So through Mike, I mean, Mike introduced me to Larry. So, um, he said Larry self published selling from the heart.
And he said, you should talk to Larry and you should talk to Kenan. Um, you know, and so there, you know, Mike has been an invaluable resource for me and he's become a good friend and I am so great.
Paul M. Caffrey (29:31.776)
Yeah, it's absolutely true. I mean, there are so many things to watch out for. I mean, I do remember going through 26 iterations before settling on a cover for the work before the work and beforehand, I would have thought of myself as not pretty easy going laid back. I'm sure the first or second is what we'll go for. But yeah, having those controls and working with a publisher is absolutely true. Yeah, Larry, Larry's a great guy. Yeah. And it's podcast his book, which.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (29:50.23)
Right, right.
Paul M. Caffrey (30:00.236)
He went from self published to getting it published nationally and probably internationally, but in stores. So that was done from success to success as well. So it shows that you can many roots can still date and still lead the way to amazing success. And as regards, what was your biggest learning that you didn't expect when you were writing the book?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (30:06.786)
That's right, yep.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (30:15.298)
That's right.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (30:26.67)
I actually scrapped the original book. The original book, I had been contracted over the pandemic to write a prospecting course for Udemy for their sales catalog, which I did. And so, I had some time on my hands and so I did that. And that was an amazing experience. And I created a two hour introduction to prospecting course for Udemy. And I was just gonna take that course and make a book. And so I hired a book coach and I started down that path. And about three months in, I said to her, I'm like, I need to take a break.
Like I just, it was not enjoyable. I have a journalism degree, so I love to write. So the fact that I was struggling to write the book was frustrating for me. And during that 30 days I took off, I realized that I didn't wanna write this book. I thought there were a lot of how-to books out there, and there were a lot of people who were probably more qualified than I to write a book on prospecting or any kind of a how-to. And so I went back to her and said, I don't wanna write this book. Like I literally wanna scrap everything we've done.
And I said, I want to help people figure out how to earn more income, how to put themselves in the right sales position so that they can choose the income level that they want and that can impact the life that they want to have. And I think a lot of it came from how I grew up, right? Like, um, like I told you, my mom taught school for 13 years. That was an underpaid position. And before my dad bought into the real estate office, he was a mid-level manager for what we would now call
Um, Southwestern Bell or AT&T. He went into the management training program out of college. And so my parents were on this nice little white picket fence path, you know, to be a school teacher and a mid-level manager for the rest of their lives. Um, and really like the decision to go into real estate changed our family, changed our financial situation, you know, changed how, you know, how we spent money and what we spent it on. My dad was still, I call him the millionaire next door.
He was still very conservative. All of us still buy used cars because he instilled on us that buying new cars was a bad investment because cars are not investments. But I learned a lot of that from that situation. And I think, and again, like you said, real estate's a really hard business, but for those who were dedicated, and I saw my mom work 60 and 70 hour weeks to get to the level where she was still probably working 40 to 50, but.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (32:48.338)
You know, I'm like, there's so many different options and I don't think a lot of people grow up in a commission only environment. And so, you know, I saw that environment. Then I went into retail sales. So out of college, I was a buyer. I became a buyer for a department store. And so then I was in retail sales. I had weighted tables through high school and college. So I had, I had learned the, you know, I'd learn commission. I learned what it was like to earn commission and tips. Um, so.
I really like, I really wanted to write a book. And in fact, I don't even call it a sales book. I call it a professional development book for sales professionals, because what I'm really doing is help you figure out, you know, if you put yourself in the right position to win, and then I talk a lot about what I have deemed. This is my term. I call it step changes. And we talked about this a little bit earlier, whereas are you actually is, is how you're moving through your career progression, a conscious decision.
Are you figuring out that I've maxed out? You know, I wanted to check this box. Um, as an, I, I use this example and it turned out horribly for me, but I wanted to manage an international sales team. That was a box I hadn't checked on my resume and I wanted to check that box. And so I left the SaaS world and took a job at a CPG company that was a startup and that was funded, which, cause I was already in, into that world, into the startup funded world, um, the, the CEO and the COO had been guns for hire as I called them.
They had just turned around Breyers ice cream and the VC that had helped them do that or the PE company then brought them into this company. But it was a dog and pet food company. It was a dog and cat food company, CPG. And 10 months into that job, I left. I was going to be able to check the international box. I was going to be responsible for the inside sales team and an international team. But I learned very quickly that this is not the world for me.
And so I tell people like, I feel like I've made all of the right step changes with that one exception in my career. That's put me in the position I'm in today, but I knew myself well enough to know that I had made a mistake. Um, you know, I was struggling with the environment. I was struggling with my boss. I was struggling with waiting for the FDA to approve ingredients so we could make this holistic pet food. I didn't like it. And so I was literally gone to basically 10 months to the day. I got myself in a situation that I got myself right out.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (35:04.458)
And I think about that, I think there's so many people out there that probably felt the way I did that have realized that they made a mistake and that, but they're, but they feel like they have to stay a year or a year and a half or two years, and I'm here to tell you, you don't. And you know, when I started to get back into SAS and interviewed for that first job and people said, why are you leaving? I told them, I said, I made a mistake. I hate consumer product goods. I don't want to be in that world anymore. Right. I, all the other boxes were checked.
Paul M. Caffrey (35:29.392)
Yeah.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (35:31.894)
And that's the thing, like the biggest box, I checked all the boxes. I checked it, startup, VC funded, you know, international sales team, sales leader. I checked all of those other boxes. I'd never been in CPG. I didn't know I didn't like it.
Paul M. Caffrey (35:48.196)
Yeah, and I think the fact that you are owning your career allows you to be able to speak confidently to that fact. I made these decisions, this was the rationale, and now it's time for something else. And I think people also appreciate that and get that. And particularly these days when...
You know, you're going to be in the position, like some people may get laid off and they have to explain that as well. And again, being very confident and owning that I think is really, really important, as opposed to some people I see are trying to hide it, which is definitely not the right way to go about it. We're nearly there for time, but I do have a few quick questions that I would like to shoot past you. So first one, what is your number one prospecting tip?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (36:24.822)
Yep. Sure.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (36:33.378)
Do it. Just do it. There's no prospecting fairy doesn't exist. There's no magic fairy does for this. You have to do it.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:44.96)
I like it very simple and question to ask yourself, have I prospected every day this week? I think a lot of people are going to say no. Okay, so second one, what are any day Oh, the whole other world? What is your number one sales tip?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (36:45.678)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (36:53.57)
That's right. Or any days this week. Ha ha ha.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (37:03.99)
You know, my number one sales tip, I didn't share this with you earlier, but I'll share it with you now, my sales superpower and my superpower is generosity. And so my sales tip is the best way to win over the heart of a prospect is to introduce them to a prospect for them.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:20.78)
Like it. Yeah. Thinking of others, that does help you get those relationships to last longer and outlast the product or service that you've sold to somebody and be able to bring that relationship forward. So, yeah, very, very nice. We spoke a little bit about career for obvious reasons. What's your number one tip for somebody looking to get promoted?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (37:38.56)
Hmm?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (37:43.726)
I think you have to understand again, understand the whys behind that, right? Like why do you want to be promoted? Have you earned the right to be promoted? Can you sell that to somebody else? And is this the right time for you? Is that promotion that you want the right next step change? Again, that goes back to being intentional and proactive about your career and knowing that you're here on three, but 10 is up here. Are all of those other steps in between a means to get to 10?
Um, and so, you know, I think, I think sometimes people want to be promoted for the wrong reasons or they want to move for the wrong reasons. And so if you've really sat down and been intentional about, you know, like as an example, like, you know, everybody's in intrinsic motivations are different. Um, but I ended up paying cash for college as I call it, you know, I, my son didn't have to take out loans. And that was really important to me because all of, you know, a lot of people don't get that, don't, don't get that pleasure, but my brother and I both had that pleasure.
and coming out of school without that hanging over our head was a big, like that was just a game changer for us. It set us up in life in a way that a lot of people don't get set up. And I wanted to be able to do that for my son. And so I needed to put myself in a position. I had been saving for college, but you know how it is. My college expenses were going up more rapidly than my savings for college was going up. And so I wanted to be able to pay cash for college and I did. And so like, what are those things that...
you know, that you think about that would be nice. Like, you know, my parents had done that for me. I wanted to turn around and do that for my son. My brother has been able to do that for his children. And so, you know, but that means like, then you gotta work backwards from that number, right? College ain't cheap. So, you know, that's $100,000, you know, proposition or more in today's day and age. And so, what do I have to earn in order to be able to cover those costs?
Paul M. Caffrey (39:34.928)
Great. Again, having logic, reason, rational give you the motivation to realise if that is what you should be going after or not. What is the number one sales book you recommend people check out?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (39:51.018)
Actually, the sales book I recommend is not necessarily a sales book. Of course, I want you to read my book, Selling Your Way In. But I'm a big Brene Brown fan. And I read everything that Brene puts out and I listen to her podcasts, because that's all about human psychology.
And I think the best sales, you know, the best sales books you could read are probably psychology books, sociology books and the like. And so I've learned a lot about myself by, by going through her reading and she's got an amazing book called dare to lead for leaders, um, everything she puts out. And I'm a data chick. So, um, I'm, you know, I'm a little woo as well, but the thing I love most about what Brene prints out is that it's all fact-based.
You know, she is by heart a researcher. She's, you know, she's a professor at the University of Houston. She is by heart a researcher. And so when she puts out information, it's all fact-based based on research. But the things that she's taught me about how humans, you know, operate, the emotions that they have, you know, another great book that I love is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. And he takes kids when he was teaching a class, a negotiation, he took kids through an exercise.
And everybody handled the money situation differently. And he said, that's because you all did that with emotion. And they go, no, we didn't. And they're like, no, he said, no, if it was logical, you'd all spent the same amount of money. But you all spent a different amount of money, which means emotion was involved, right? And so I don't think we always, we're not always thinking about the psychology of people and of sales, but I think any book like that is probably, Berta is at the top of the list for that reason. She's taught me a lot about people.
Paul M. Caffrey (41:33.12)
Yeah, two great recommendations. And also actually, she's a fantastic speaker. So even if you don't get the chance to see her, watch some of the stuff she's done on YouTube. It's incredible. Very entertaining. Yeah. Well. Yeah.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (41:39.574)
She is a fantastic speaker.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (41:44.958)
It is very impressive for an introvert. She is a self-proclaimed and full-on introvert. But when she gets on stage, she says, and she's talking about her subject matter, the passion comes out and she is an amazing speaker. You're right.
Paul M. Caffrey (42:00.076)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I was finally just thinking about preparation and being ready for everything ahead. I mean, what does doing the work before the work look like in your world?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (42:14.282)
Yeah, I think about what I call pre-call planning. And I say, again, I'm sort of not very nice sometimes when I talk to sales professionals, but I said, if I hear you ask a question that you could have found on the internet, shame on you. I think it's disrespectful. Like I go as far as to say that. If you can find the answer to a question you have during discovery that is on their website, their LinkedIn page, their Twitter page, the web, the internet in general, then shame on you. I'm all about confirming.
your research, right? I'm all about saying, I saw this, I want to confirm that that's still the situation. But I hear sales reps all the time, not doing their pre call planning, not doing their research, and asking questions that by the way, all the other 90% of sales professionals are asking, and that's not going to set you apart.
Paul M. Caffrey (43:02.684)
Fantastic. And I think that is a great place to end things. Christie, thanks so much for coming on. Best of luck with your new book launch, selling your way in. If people want to connect with you or get more information, how can they do that?
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (43:13.335)
Thank you.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (43:19.946)
Yeah, a few places, sellingyourwayin.com will get you access to all things going on with a book and how to pre-order. And then I'm on LinkedIn. So please find me on LinkedIn and connect with me. I love it when your listeners connect with me on LinkedIn and tell me their one takeaway.
Paul M. Caffrey (43:39.12)
Great, so there you have it. Check out the website, go to LinkedIn. Chrissie Jones, thanks so much for coming on and look forward to the next time we chat.
Kristie Jones - Author, "Selling Your Way IN" (43:47.766)
Thank you, thanks for having me.
