Paul M. Caffrey (00:02.171)
And as I mentioned, I'm delighted to be joined by Michelle Tillis-Lederman and Lou Diamond. How we doing, guys?
Michelle Tillis Lederman (00:09.662)
I'm great. It's sunny here in Jersey.
Lou Diamond (00:12.833)
It's even sunnier in South Florida, but we're doing spectacular. How are you, Paul?
Paul M. Caffrey (00:17.007)
Well, that's amazing. I'm in cloudy Dublin and cloudy is good. It's not raining. So, you know, I'll take that for the win. So this episode is going to be a little different. We don't normally have two guests on at the same time, so we're going to have twice as much fun, get twice the entertainment. But I think first, a great place to start would be to understand how you guys met and started working together.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (00:42.09)
Me? Okay. Well, we met many years ago in an association that we both belonged to as part of the speakers community. And so we've kind of always been in each other's orbit and always really appreciated each other's work because we really come from a similar place but take it from different angles. He always calls me his connecting sister from another mister or something like that. And we were down to conference this past summer and
I had mentioned that I was going to this breakout session about partnerships, because I felt like I needed, you know, partner. I was kind of having some frustrations and Lou just flippantly says, the Lou and Michelle show. And I literally wrote an article last week about this saying sometimes the answer's standing right in front of you. And I looked at him, I'm like, I think we should have a conversation about that. And that's kind of how it all came about was,
you know, he was standing right in front of me and I'm like, oh my God, this is so obvious. You are the perfect person to partner on this vision.
Lou Diamond (01:50.556)
and where she's my connecting sister from another mister, I'm her connecting brother from another mother. We both have connection as the platforms that we focus on, what we speak about, what we work with our clients, where we coach some amazing leaders and upcoming leaders within organizations. And it was kind of weird, she's right. Like we were literally just sitting there going, how did we never think about this, was the first thing about joining our powers together. And the two of us went for a walk, you know.
It's always good to be moving and talking and walking. And Michelle is very persistent on making sure she gets in the number of steps she has every day. So we started walking probably for about an hour, an hour and a half went to a bunch of other breakout sessions and literally a new idea, a new business, a new platform, a new way, not a new way, a different way of bringing together our two worlds was born.
And that's how it started and it's been an exciting journey since pretty much this summer.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:51.899)
It sounds like it was always meant to be. So some walk competitors, I guess, into now an awesome business duo.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (03:00.862)
Okay, wait, hold on. I gotta call foul on the word competitor. So, if your audience wants to really get a sense of who we are, I don't believe in the word competitor. I've never believed in that word. I don't have competition. I have potential collaborators, strategic partners, referral partners, sounding boards, mentors. I don't view the world as competition.
Lou Diamond (03:05.032)
I grew up.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:05.625)
Okay.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (03:28.454)
One of the things in my latest book, The Connector's Advantage, is the mindset of abundance. And when we come from a place of abundance, we don't feel the need to compare ourselves against somebody else, to compete with somebody else, to protect ours from somebody else, which is why it was so easy for me to talk to Lou about what I was thinking and to just put it all out there in front of him and see if it made sense.
Lou Diamond (03:54.444)
I'll even add to that point that we're all about bringing worlds together and for those that think that oh that's my competition you know another company another one first of all that competition potentially is a new partner potentially could be working together with you in the future and I think if you're able to take in a lot of the best lessons from anything and you bring that connectors mindset together I think that's important to bring it all together you'll actually start to think about your
your goals and the things you're trying to achieve slightly differently and maybe in a way that's a little healthier and the way you could think a little bit more of a growth mindset as opposed to us versus them.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:33.951)
Yeah, it's super interesting to go down that path. And I guess when I'm speaking to say companies that maybe, okay, maybe they want me to come in and do some sales training. If it's something which is, if it's looking at the AE side of things and it's having a more broader range, then I'd be like, yeah, this is something for me to go on.
If it's very focused on, let's say negotiation, you know, I know, yeah, Todd, Todd Capone is probably the best person to go with that. So the business is just once that one thing makes sense to, you know, pass that forward and then, you know, something else comes back your way. So I like that. And I do see the abundant mindset is pretty amazing. And I think people struggle with connecting. So.
I remember reading Friend of a Friend many years ago, David Burkis, and it's a great book. And there was a lot of stuff that I took away from it. Um, but I think a lot of people really struggle with that first step. So, you know, how do people identify who they should, let's say network or connect with and then how do they do it?
Michelle Tillis Lederman (05:39.102)
Okay, I can talk for a long time on this question. But the first thing is really shifting our mindset from this idea of doing something to being someone. Right, so networking is something we do and a connector is who we are. A connector is somebody who prioritizes relationships in all of their interactions and the way in which they think and interact, whether they're at work or on the playground. And so that's the first shift in our thinking.
The second thing I say is I really don't love the word networking, but my first publisher made me put it in the title for SEO. I'm like, but it's not just about that. What's it about? I'm like, it's about relationships. So we came up with this concept or this term called relationship networking. That's really what I want people to think about is not I'm going to do something for purpose and I'm targeting and I'm being strategic, but I'm building the relationships that I want to, that I get to, that are true and enjoyable.
And I'm really clear on what I'm working on and I'm willing to share it and talk about it and see who they know and who they might connect me to. And so it's a little less targeted and a little more about just the connection.
Lou Diamond (06:53.568)
I'll add, and I love the term, there's relationship networking, I love the word connect working. I don't like the word networking because networking feels very technical or it's growing your network. These are things you need to do. But connect working is growing the connections and relationships within your network. And that's really what you're trying to do. And you asked, Paul, what's the first thing to do? To Michelle's point, it's about a mindset. And the activity that the mindset actually spits out is really...
connecting initially with a conversation. And in SpeakEasy, that's all I'm about, is that that's where every single connection begins, at the beginning of a conversation. And how you approach and how you need to be, to Michelle's point, is where it all begins. So those initial steps that people are trying to figure out how they need to connect, it's setting up the way you need to be and understanding that abundance mindset and bringing people into your world and getting that mindset there, and then taking that step forward and reaching out and connecting with someone.
through initially a conversation.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (07:54.094)
But Paul, I want to answer your question about the how, because I think that's a really tactical question. And people are like, oh, this is all great in theory, but I don't know how. And I actually, in our program that we'll talk about later, we give kind of the breakdown of a conversation. I call it the anatomy of a conversation. And it starts with being curious. And that's my favorite line is, when you don't know where to start, start by being curious. And ask a question you actually want to know the answer to.
And that's key because as you start to ask that question, if you're interested in the answer, you are going to naturally start to probe a little bit deeper and share a little of yourself. And so that's when the, I call it the dance, that's when the exchange starts to happen. And I can go through the entire anatomy if you want, but I'll take a breath.
Paul M. Caffrey (08:45.399)
Yeah, it's is super interesting. And you're probably going to see me trying to get into the practical. What do I do? How do we do it? So what I'm taking away from that is relationship networking, connect networking or connect working. There we go. And it's something that we should be doing, I guess, all of the time, not just when you want something. And that's a mistake that people make, right? They wait until they want something good.
Lou Diamond (09:07.182)
Hmm.
Paul M. Caffrey (09:12.375)
If let's play out an example, if, if you work in a tech company like Google, Salesforce, whatever, there's typically two types of relationships that you need to be building. If you want to go into a leadership position or go into a second, third line leadership position where you're over a lot of people, you're looking at trying to build relationships with those people who were involved in the decision making process and the hiring process. And that's typically a six to 12 month thing.
Or you're looking at having, let's say an executive coach that you are paying for. And part of the reason you're paying for that is because they have a network where they can connect you to people to help you get somewhere faster. So it's a little bit of a cheat code that a lot of people take advantage of. What are your thoughts on just connecting and building relationships? Um, versus let's say proactively doing it because you know,
I want to become the RVP of this division or I want to get there. Is that something we should proactively go after or just build relationships and see what happens?
Michelle Tillis Lederman (10:22.37)
My answer is yes and. And so you talked about two kinds of relationships. I actually wanna broaden that. I talk about kind of three categories of relationships. One of the things you mentioned was champions, right? Those people at the table, the decision makers, I call them champions. I put them in a category with cheerleaders. You need champions and cheerleaders in your corner. You need mentors and followers, and you need sounding boards and confidants. And the executive coach might be in that sounding board, confidant area.
So yes, there are key relationships that we want and need in our lives that will help us advance. And one of the things I would challenge all your listeners out there to do right now is to think about who they already have that fill those roles. Because we have mentors, it might not be official, but we have people who've given us mentor moments in our lives, whose advice that we follow, that we seek. If you can't be a great leader unless you have people who want to follow you. So that's why I put mentors and followers together.
So yes, you want to build these relationships, but you're building them all the time. To your point, it's not networking for now or for need. Right? It's building the relationships as we go and nurturing them continuously, because that will create your champions. That will create your cheerleaders, your raving fans.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:41.759)
OK, and do you proactively have a list? Like is there like that boardroom of 12 people or is there a number that you have? Or is it just they just build up and just collect them as I go along and offer value out to people?
Michelle Tillis Lederman (11:58.862)
I have thoughts, Lou, but I'm gonna let you take this one.
Lou Diamond (12:01.085)
So it's a combination of both and let's think about your audience, right? So it's real, we're always trying to make connections every single day. And I want to make it clear that you do not always know where the next connection is coming from. But positioning yourself to be open and curious to ask certain questions, you can't believe how many people are connected to one another in different ways. And sometimes you need to step up and
take that initiative to connect with another individual that all of a sudden ended up being connected to somebody else. For your sales folks out there who have target lists and planning to the way that Michelle just broke it out, you almost need to figure out in those three different ways of looking at who you're connected to, who can help me get to those people faster? Who can help me at least get, if I'm very target, I need to go meet the people there. That being said, there are other activities and initiatives that you can do that position you to be connected.
more often with other people that speed up all those lists of peoples that you ran through. Different networking events, becoming parts of certain communities, checking in with your alumni network, whatever it might be. You already have a whole world of contacts in you that it's really a matter of being good and following up and keeping up with those. And as I mentioned before, it's about maintaining and having those conversations, either electronically, email, or making sure you position yourself to have a conversation with someone.
to figure out which one of those ways you can go after those targeted lists. I'll pass it to Michelle.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (13:28.554)
You know, we're going to talk about the connected leader club a little bit, but one of the things that we do is we provide that structure. So we have something called a relationship extension activity, where it helps you map out where you have gaps. It is not, you know, numeric, like, I need this many of this and this many of that, but understanding who are currently fulfilling those roles, where might you have a gap, where might you fill that gap, and starting to kind of just be a little more cognizant of it.
And so that you are thinking about those things as you're building relationships, rather than kind of being like, I need this, I go there.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:05.923)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's it is terrible when we see it done wrong. You know, let's say there's something coming up and oh, let's grab a coffee because you're going to interview me in a few weeks time or actually let's grab a bit of lunch because I'm going to present to your whole board next week. And so you're trying to force that relationship when you should have naturally organically done it beforehand. So that is everybody hates that writer. So awkward, those meetings and they tend not to go so well.
Lou Diamond (14:05.965)
Thank you.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:34.499)
There's two things that are coming to mind. But I actually think I'm going to jump in this first, right? So last year, 69% of sales professionals missed their quota. And, you know, it was just research across a lot of orgs. And interestingly, of salespeople who followed sales coaches from a number of different policies, quite consistent. Twenty three percent of those actually paid for.
coaching or had coaching in place and were in groups, which where they were with peers. And when we I haven't seen the information put together, I suspect somebody will. But it does seem like that the group who are actively getting coached, who are actively in the circles with peers, not in their own company, typically, but with other organisations, whatever court they're in, they tended to still have a good year. Right. So some people did really, really well last year.
I'm interested to get your opinion on why you think coaching works.
Lou Diamond (15:38.916)
I'm going to start off by asking that question right back at you, because that actually might be a way to start thinking this question. If you were to take one reason why do you think it works, Paul, and I'm doing this intentionally.
Paul M. Caffrey (15:51.355)
Well, it's, I wasn't planning on answering the question. So why do I think it works? For me, I think it's two things. I think number one is people take, there's accountability there. So they actually do what they say they're gonna do. And I think number two, I get something that works and we're in that world of abundance, we're not direct competitors. So I'm happy to share that with you and then you share best practice with me. And so then we gradually get a little bit better that way as well.
Lou Diamond (15:54.996)
Hahaha!
Paul M. Caffrey (16:20.143)
Sometimes there can be introductions to key people, but I think it's more one and two in the sales world.
Lou Diamond (16:26.944)
So here's the reason I asked that question right back to you is because one of the things that I believe about great coaching is that when you create coach like leaders and people that are pushing the answer for asking I'm a big fan of coming from a place of asking versus a place of telling. And part of the reason that those that are coached do really well exceed as leaders exceed as top performers in their field is because coaches are able to bring the most out of them.
Paul M. Caffrey (16:40.903)
Hmm.
Lou Diamond (16:55.244)
And in this particular case, like bringing the idea, you already knew kind of what the answer was here and what some of those things are, at least what it meant to you. Great leaders, great coaches are able to do this of their top salespeople. And oh, by the way, if you use this, this is all about being curious. I literally was curious as to what you thought with this, right? Just as you were asking me the question as a great podcast host. But I look at it as that's one of the reasons why coaches are able to elevate and get the best out of you because it's your superpowers are residing inside of you. They're ready to come out. That's what we're looking for.
Good coaches do this.
Paul M. Caffrey (17:27.119)
Okay, and go ahead, Michelle.
Lou Diamond (17:28.348)
Michelle definitely wants to jump in on this.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (17:30.966)
Yeah, I love everything I said, and I agree with everything that I was hearing coming out of your mouth. And the question is, you know, why are people more successful when they are working outside of their internal organizations, broadening their community and working with a coach? And yes, accountability is there. Because, you know, when we say to somebody else, when we write it down, we increase our likelihood of following through on it. Absolutely. There are some of those very tactical things.
When we have that broader network, I don't want to say unintentionally, but as a result, we get connections. It might not be curated, but it's, hey, we built this relationship and I've mentioned this and we're sharing our vision. And so now it's like, oh, I have this person, I have that person. And people are four times more likely to buy when they are referred by somebody they know. And 92% of people trust referrals. So, you know,
that broadening of your community with kind of strategic alliances, right, that might be in a similar field and it's still okay, is going to expand you. I don't want to say anecdotally, but like as a result. So the other piece of that is when you are joining something like that, you're investing. You understand the power and
you are willing to put in the time, the work, the energy, and you're accessing so much more than just one coach. There is so much expertise and power in the collaboration, in the peer mentoring, in the masterminding of getting somebody else's perspective. It's great to have the guidance of the executive coach and not to put what Lou and I do lower down on the totem pole.
But it's all of it. It's all of those aspects together.
Lou Diamond (19:32.492)
And just one more point Paul to that, whatever your statistic was of those that are being coached and how they've elevated and hit their numbers, I'd be very much willing to bet that those that have been part of Masterminds or this collective group are even outperforming those. So I think that's a real big thing because to Michelle's points, it's not just one to one, it's the one to many and having a network of people that you can go to, to help you make the connections or to help you when you're down or...
figure out new ways to perform or close a deal or ask a question, whatever it might be, right? That's the benefit of being part of a community of those that are looking out for you and your best interests.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:09.731)
Yeah, there's so much there. I always think of ways how do you know if you're actually good or bad at this? And like for me, like
I mean, there are just people, there's customers who I've sold to 10, 12 years ago that I still speak with today. And, you know, some of exited companies that are doing different things. And I still look at like, there is people who I can connect with others. And I always look at that as being quite useful or I could give them a shout. And for example, I'm going to be in New York next week. And I'm actually going to see someone I haven't worked with in 10 years. It's crazy. I don't know how the time goes so fast. But I kind of think, okay, well.
I may, I could probably improve on it, but there's maybe something that's going okay here. Cause I still have a bit of a network, but, um, let's say a manager, right? So a lot of your large tech companies are in the position of saying, right, well, we, look, we need to coach our reps. So only 15% of reps are hitting target, right? This is kind of an industry standard. So that means most aren't, and we're not coaching them. We're not giving them enough enablement. And then.
I'm speaking with leaders and I'm in helping more of what to do, how to do it. Well, I often the conversation comes up with leaders is how, how do we know if we're able to coach? Well, how do we know if we're doing it right or not? You know, should we be doing coaching courses? And this is a question that's been bouncing around and around. I really like to hear your thoughts on it.
Lou Diamond (21:43.296)
I just wanted to lead on this first then, because I know Michelle will close with a much bigger bang, because that's how we work, you know, we set things up in this. I do want to talk about one thing that you keep hitting about, and you'll talk about, to the listeners out there, you're talking about sales or targets. Believe it or not, these are words that churn Michelle and my stomachs, because we don't think about making the sales. Sales is very transactional. Hitting the target or the number is just a number. Oh yes, I want to make a million dollars in sales this year, but the reality is,
That isn't what you're trying to do. You're trying to be the best within a field, or you're trying to knock things out of the park. When we get too transactional and make it about a sale, as opposed to the relationship and the connection, you're making sales to that person over and over and over again. So that person who you have a relationship for over 10 years, think of it this way, that started maybe with one transaction, but it was the relationship and connection that enabled you to do more of them. So that's a first mindset I want you to shift. And now to your question, which will help set.
Michelle up here, and I know she's much happier that I said that. And that is that in knowing if you're gonna be a good coach, and we highly recommend this, by the way, we have a part of what we're gonna talk about real soon is the importance of being coach-like as a leader, or as a top sales performer, or as running all the different accounts. There are coach-like skills and things that you absolutely should take advantage of and make sure that you learn, because they are so valuable, not only in becoming a better leader.
but they're really valuable in you hitting those numbers that you're trying your people to become a better salesperson, to become a better account manager, to grow those relationships. There's so many incredibly all-encompassing skills and being a better coach that will help you throughout your career and that's part of our platform. With that, I'm passing it to Michelle.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (23:31.97)
You know, when you said it'll not only help you be a better leader, it'll help you be a better salesperson, I thought he was going to say it'll help you be a better partner, a better person, a better parent. And I think that learning some of the coaching skills, and again, that's one of the things that we bring into our program, is taking a coach approach. And your question is, how do you know you're good at it?
I don't know if there's a scorecard, but I think you'll notice in the conversations and in the interactions and in the way in which people respond to you, whether or not it was an effective exchange. And a lot of coaching is about asking really good questions. I love when Lou posts that question back to you. That was such a coach moment. And when you do that...
then reflecting back, here's what I heard from you, or here's what I'm getting, and checking in. Because sometimes people don't even hear or understand kind of how it might be being received. And so it is some basic skills that can be taught, but it's also building a habit around it.
Paul M. Caffrey (24:50.524)
Okay. Sounds like one of my favorite books, The Coaching Habit, Michael Bungaistainia. It's so good. Let's chat a little bit about the program now. So we've kind of we've touched upon it once or twice throughout. And I'm sure people are getting curious. So this is for people who want to become leaders or become better leaders.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (25:11.914)
This can be for entrepreneurs or people who are internal to organizations that are working their way up the ladder. It is not for people just out of school and just starting out. This is for your mid career and kind of getting towards the higher end of the ladder. And it's a lot of organizations are not providing the support that people need. And as you said earlier, sometimes that internal network is not enough. And so,
The reason this all came about was because I had to say no a lot. You know, I don't like saying no, nobody likes to say no, but there's only one of me and I can't coach everybody who requests it. And so I tend to work with organizations. And so when individuals ask for coaching, I didn't really have an offer or an option for them. And I would try to find those referral partners and, you know, say, Hey, try this person, you try that person. But now I finally have a way to say yes.
and to provide the support that people have been looking for. And so the Connected Leader Club was kind of formed, but what we realized is we wanted to have all those foundational skills that we've been talking about. The coaching skills, understanding where the relationships are in our own lives, understanding our leadership brand and how we wanna be portrayed. All of those core skills around listening and curiosity, we've been touching on so many of these elements. And so we put together an eight week.
Lou loves when I say this, semi-synchronous learning journey that we do in a cohort because we want them to start building those relationships right off the bat. And so it is an eight week program with three live sessions, ongoing conversations, interactions, activities, and sharing. So you're building community right away. And once you finish the course, you join the club and you get ongoing executive coaching twice a month.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (27:08.538)
thought leader experts that is coming in for our thought leader special programs. And we have a bunch of those. And I'm so excited. I'm going to stop, let Lou tell you a little bit more.
Lou Diamond (27:19.08)
Yeah, and I think it's great because what we are doing Paul is we wanted to create a Community of like-minded forward-thinking thriving human beings that are what we like to call connected leaders We we had been doing it at an institutional level for all different organizations Indirectly or through our workshops and through our speaking and through the coaching that we do but we recognize that we have a lot of power here and there's a lot of people to Michelle to Michelle's points that
that we're missing out on this opportunity. And they are the ones, and they are the future connected leaders of this world, that we create a whole army of them. It's gonna have an incredible powerful, a powerful place where people know, feel safe, can learn more and continue to grow, the ongoing learning. To your point, Paul, about asking, how can we get our salespeople better? How can we get our team to perform better, our account executives to get the coaching they need?
We recognize a lot of companies, they're too busy doing the great things they do. We wanted to help fill that gap and that void where that can be. And that's what the Connected Leader course and Connected Leader Club are all about. And we couldn't be more excited because it brings our Wonder Twin powers together, but also creates a whole hall of justice of superheroes that we like to hang out with and can't wait to let more and more people see what they can learn.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (28:37.954)
Okay, I love the superhero reference, but Paul, did you get the whole twin powers thing? Yeah, see, I'm not sure that, he's a little younger than us. Ha ha.
Lou Diamond (28:41.588)
Did you get that? I don't know if you did. I think we dated ourselves. We totally dated. That was an aging moment. It was a cartoon when we were kids, Hall of Justice Superheroes, the Wonder Twins.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:51.692)
Oh, it's an old cartoon. Okay.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (28:52.41)
Superpowers activate! You've got to put your rings together.
Lou Diamond (28:55.465)
I just love how young Paul is. We're just jealous. We just figured we would.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:58.555)
Yeah. Well, you know what? I felt a little bit old today because on my LinkedIn feed, something popped up and went, if you're 38, I was like, I'm 38. You've only got 42 holidays left. And then try to sell me a holiday. I was like, oh, that's all. So, yeah, right. I'm right. This is.
Lou Diamond (29:16.96)
You're going to live a lot longer than that, Paul. Look how young. Look at your skin alone. I mean, my goodness.
Paul M. Caffrey (29:22.319)
I mean, now it's coming from you, Lou. We are. We had this conversation in reverse recently. OK, I'll have to check it out. I have to check out that reference for the cartoons and throw it on YouTube. Maybe I'll show it off for my kids. Hope it's still kid friendly these days. You know, things move on. OK, so that's I think I think you've hit upon something really interesting here. There has always been, you know, there's been a lot of, let's say, leadership training.
Lou Diamond (29:37.12)
Who knows?
Paul M. Caffrey (29:50.079)
and coaching out there. I remember going into a meeting in London about 12 years ago and going, oh, so have you got any interesting clients? You know, the unusual discovery. Like, yeah, your CEO is one of our clients. I'm like, oh, yeah, right. Company had about 10,000 people in it, so I didn't know him personally, but knew him a little bit. I was like, and that's when I realized all the top people get coaching. But the networking side, that is the relationship side. I've not really seen that done.
So well, and I think we all know that we, you know, that's something that we need to do. So I think those two things coming together is really, really interesting and very exciting, actually. So I think a lot of people will benefit from that. Sorry, go ahead.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (30:32.835)
I think there's been a lot of groups over the years that have niched, right? You might have Vistage for CTO, CEO, something like that. And we don't believe in the niche because I think there's such a power in the cross-pollination between entrepreneurs and leaders, between industries, sectors and job titles. Because when you have breadth...
as well as depth, that's when you have a really rich and powerful network. And there's always going to be somebody within your, uh, circle that's got a guy, right? Um, and that's the idea is, um, faster, easier, better getting wherever you're trying to get that connection, that sale, that contact, faster, easier, and better through that network that you've built.
Paul M. Caffrey (31:26.431)
I know that it makes it makes so much sense. So it's really extending out relationships that have become something that you are doing all the time, as opposed to just when you need it, I guess, be a big change. Couple of it was a couple of fast questions. Let's like to get your opinions on. First is I remember reading a book, I think it was Sylvia and Hewitt.
It's like, forget a mentor, find a sponsor. So the idea was, yeah, mentors, all this. Yeah, that's great. Now you really need to find a sponsor. So someone who's going to be in a position is going to bring you in. Or if you can be with a customer or whatever that is. What are your what are your thoughts on that sort of approach? Do you think that is something that people should have or just? No, I've seen I'm seeing Michelle nod her head here. Go ahead.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (32:13.066)
I think it's narrow thinking. I don't think it's either or. I think it's and.
Paul M. Caffrey (32:18.131)
Cool. OK. And the other question, a few questions I shared around to a few people that were going to be chatting and a couple of questions I got. One was I want to break into leadership, but I'm too baby faced. I look too young. I just can't do it. I don't I just don't get taken seriously. Is there any advice for people who you see who kind of suffer from that?
Lou Diamond (32:42.292)
Paul, are you asking for a friend? Because that sounds like you. I know you're the very young looking. First of all, no, that's called a limiting belief too on the way that you look. It's really actually the way you act and the way you represent yourself in front of others. And if that happens to be a physical trait that you are, that you don't have enough gray hairs or enough tenure, enough bags under your eyes, whatever the term may be, make it clear it is how you act. And I have seen leaders who have absolutely wowed me
Paul M. Caffrey (32:46.281)
There you go, that's it, you got me.
Lou Diamond (33:12.)
their late teens to early 20s and have carried it all the way up until their 70s and 80s. There is no specific age that has to be put in there. The real truth is it's how you pull those skills together and communicate and be the best version of yourself in whatever part that is. So my short answer is no, there shouldn't be anyone who's got that limitation, throw that out and step forward and move into it.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (33:36.066)
So I will share that I might have had that experience. I'm four foot 10. I don't know what that is in metric, but it's short. And I mean, it's not just short. It is like below average short. And so when you have this petite woman walking in to a room full of financial executives, which are originally a lot of my clientele was in finance, because that's where I had my background, they can treat you how you let them treat you.
And so for you, it's your own mindset. And that's why the first module of the Connected Leader course is to determine and drive your leadership brand. It's how you carry yourself. It is the words that you choose to represent you and making sure that you infuse them into your interactions. And that's part of what we enable for anyone who participates.
Lou Diamond (34:27.84)
Just to be clear, when we filmed a lot of our stuff together, it's a good thing that I have a very short upper torso, because when we would sit down next to each other, I have more legs than I am up top. So we were, you know, we made sure we had leveled each other up.
Paul M. Caffrey (34:28.117)
Excellent.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (34:39.342)
I'm sorry.
Paul M. Caffrey (34:39.596)
So it works. OK, so no editing needed there. OK, that is really, really good to hear.
Lou Diamond (34:42.715)
Haha
Paul M. Caffrey (34:48.003)
I guess from there, some other questions that were thrown at me was, so when families are looking to hire people, you know, typically, you know, one of the things we'd advise is you want someone who's coachable. You know, it's kind of it's a pretty good trait to have. When I mentioned this, this shot, they mentioned, well, how do we actually
Understand in an interview process if the person might be a good coach or not, because, you know, they get a few conversations or a couple of meetings, or maybe they can have a reference call. So is there anything that you can kind of highlight or mention that maybe they should look for?
Michelle Tillis Lederman (35:26.558)
I love the question, I want somebody who's coachable. And so I actually also wrote some books on interviewing. And so it's about thinking about what kind of question do I want to ask somebody to determine what makes them coachable? So first it's, what do you think makes somebody coachable? And I think the key thing is that they're open to feedback and they're willing to act on it. And so a great interview question for those that are hiring and looking for somebody who is coachable is to say, tell me about the best feedback you ever received and what you did about it.
Paul M. Caffrey (35:43.942)
Yeah.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (35:56.991)
You'll learn pretty quickly.
Lou Diamond (36:00.032)
And maybe a little for your listeners, Paul, those that are focused on the sales aspect. Someone asked me a long time ago, you know, you can't teach someone how to sell or not. I don't know if that's true. What I do know is that you can coach someone on how to connect and you can connect people who love to coach.
So if you think about that mindset for who you are and you switch that around, take the verb or the noun out of the sales component and make it all about connecting and coaching. Think about where that can lead you and take you to the next level.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:34.163)
Cool. OK. And there are really, really good stuff. I was tempted to say, and then they want to talk about closing, but I know you want to hear that word. The.
Lou Diamond (36:44.296)
No, closing, I actually call it opening. That's funny you say that. I do not, I call that opening a relationship. I do this when I give my workshops and I talk to people. I always hated the word close. It feels like it's a finish, it's an opening. It is the opening to relationship. No different than when you graduate from university. It's commencement, it's the beginning of the next step, right? So think of it that way. It is the opening of a relationship. Get to open, not to close.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:09.091)
Yeah, an opening.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (37:09.322)
I so love that, Lou, and I had not heard that before. Totally stealing it. And so I think of it as asking, right? And so one of the things that I talk about is to have a clear vision, right? One of the mindsets of a connector is having a clear vision. Know what you want and be willing to ask for it. I'm not saying ask in the first five minutes of meeting somebody, but you do have to ask eventually.
Lou Diamond (37:12.104)
Isn't that cool? You can.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:39.083)
Cool. OK. So again, the opening as well, the opening and asking, I think is so key at the moment because pipelines are thin and you need to be able to open up conversations with a lot of different people to actually find the ones who you can actually help and serve as opposed to before when they might have been inbound, banging on your door asking for your help. So things are, you know, tables have definitely turned in the last couple of years.
Before we wrap up, maybe just a couple of questions as you pass you pretty quick. And pivoting from what I normally ask, rather than talk about prospecting and sales. If we, if we talk about leadership and networking from a, well, let's say connecting standpoint, what's one action our listeners can take to be a better connector and actually go and do after hearing this?
Lou Diamond (38:34.24)
Do you want, I was gonna say, do you want the shameless plug where they obviously should learn about the connected leader course? I actually think it's gonna be really a simple one here. And that is think about the way that your champions, your cheerleaders, those that you're trying to go out of that Michelle mentioned earlier, and go reach out to some of them. Go have a quick conversation right after this listen. After you're listening, if you're on a job, get off this podcast you're listening to. And now,
Michelle Tillis Lederman (38:34.407)
You want to take that one first?
Paul M. Caffrey (38:41.103)
Sound?
Lou Diamond (39:02.208)
go reach out and have that next conversation with somebody because that is where your connections continue to grow and give. That'll be my first step towards everything.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (39:10.534)
I would just say build a habit. And it doesn't have to be a specific, like here, do these three things. You build a habit that works for you. So for me, I have a rule of if somebody pops into my head three times, I write their name into my calendar and make sure I reach out to them within a week. It could be a comment on a social media post. It could be a phone call. It could be a text. There's lots of ways to reach out, but make it a light touch and just, you can simply say you keep coming to my mind, you know, send me an update. What's going on with you? Here's my quick update.
And that just keeps you in somebody's mind without getting in their face.
Paul M. Caffrey (39:47.283)
Cool. I really, really like it. And for people who want to find out more about the new project, how can they find us?
Lou Diamond (39:56.308)
So head on over to conn You can learn all about the Connected Leader course, our community, the Connected Leader Club, the upcoming cohorts that are coming available to you. I'm not sure when this episode's going to air, but we are constantly putting out new offerings and new groups for you to learn more about it. And we'll start off with that. That's the place to find that. And then if you want to find Michelle, you can find her at.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (40:23.022)
Shel Ha ha.
Lou Diamond (40:25.62)
and you can find me at thriveloud.com.
Paul M. Caffrey (40:29.567)
Excellent. Well, thanks so much for joining me. It's been an absolute blast. And I look forward to speaking to you both again in the future and maintaining these relationships.
Lou Diamond (40:39.232)
I like it. You're connect working already, Paul. See, you already learned throughout this episode.
Michelle Tillis Lederman (40:39.65)
I love it.
Paul M. Caffrey (40:43.387)
That's it. Thank you very much.
Lou Diamond (40:46.548)
Thank you.
