Paul M. Caffrey (00:02.894)
And as I mentioned, I am delighted to be joined by Justin Michael. Justin, how are you? I'm great, man. Life moves pretty fast, as Ferris Bueller likes to say. It certainly does. It is nonstop. It accelerates when kids come along, which is something I've discovered over the last few years. Speaking of which, we are on the eve of your latest book coming out, another one already. How are you getting so many done?
Yeah, so I had a manuscript for this called Musifestation back in 2011. And the whole idea was music and manifestation. And then I found that nobody had really done a pure law of attraction meets selling book, right? And so attraction selling seemed like the flaw would be that you sit back and you visualize and your deals close. Right. But the word action, you know, A-C-T-I-O-N is in attraction and the big miss from all the law of attraction.
on the literature is you sit around thinking about yourself. So in sales, it's all about service and about visualizing the customer, seeing the value. So I think if you can take massive action and focus on the giving and the service component, it really sets these techniques on fire. And that's why I decided to do it. This is kind of the mindset and the medicine behind the whole ideology. So, decided to get into that and how it weaves into Justin Michael Method one and two, which are best sellers right now in the top 25. And...
really go into the strategy mindset and tactics of 20 years that I spent doing full cycle sales with a huge emphasis on top of funnel and outbound. Yeah, it's, it's really interesting because I think at first that is going to grab people's attention, you know, attraction selling, even the title itself, it is a little bit contrarian. So super, super interesting.
Your first, your first two books, you've had more, but your last two books are so successful. And one of the things I really enjoyed about researching this was, especially going through Justin Michael method two, is the amount of references, the amount of other great sales techniques, sales professionals that you have linked to and referenced, but not only done the strategic stuff, you also pull in what to do, how to apply it, how to take action in the moment.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:18.054)
And I found that really, really refreshing. When you're writing these books, you know, how do you, how do you balance things between the theory and then the execution? Yeah. So I spent a lot of time being mentored by Tony Hughes and I was the case study and combo prospecting and I came to him in 2011 when I was 31, right? When I was at Salesforce and I was taking a challenger sales simulation in a blizzard in Chicago, the Martin cloud. And that was great. I learned a lot. And it just kind of.
set my mind on fire of like, there's so many ways to do methods. I wonder where they all come from. And I found there was a gap at the very top of the funnel where there was fewer voices and less rigor. It was more of a volume game or how can we get more domains and send more emails or have power dialers. And then a lot of the scripts all seem similar. So I started to get into game theory, neuroscience, relationship dynamics, NLP, you know, TAL-EV, antifragility, just anything
that was sociology and related to the psychology or counterintuitive nature of using a phone. Then I worked in mobile marketing for 13 years, and I found that the form factors of outbound didn't fit well in a smartphone world. Still doing long emails with lots of bullet points, long rambling, openers on calls, asking for permission. So I started to build my own methodology out.
And to do that, I read hundreds of books. I met many of the authors. I know Mike Bosworth, I know Aaron Ross and Aaron Ross worth the forward of tech powered sales. So, you know, Tony was a huge influence on researching the history. I'd say Todd Capone too. Who was my first bootcamp trainer at the Salesforce marketing cloud, which was exact target at the time. And he's somewhat of a sales historian. So as I write these books, I really was thinking of a magnum opus, just to Michael one and two are really mindset. And then the tactics of outbound.
The second book is full cycle closing and sort of getting to the seven figure mark. And then the third is sort of the medicine behind it. We're not our thoughts and we're not our mind and we're not our body, what's behind that? So like whatever you believe, there's a lot going on with your mental state, your identity. And people say that 95% of your life is your subconscious mind.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:36.042)
And in sales, you're trying to do a six and seven figure deal and you're getting psyched out. So it was pretty crazy. I mean, I, when I wrote the first book, I put a thousand people in a Google doc, like the doc broke and everyone was on edit. It was a free for all a circus. I needed 80 legal releases to get that out. Took a couple of years, worked with Harper Collins on that. And I did another book on Wiley with my co-founder, Julian Imchinski in hype cycle and hard skill exchange, which was called reinventing virtual events. And then this series is like,
If you can't afford the tech stacks and they won't invest in you, what's the MacGyver strategy? Like, what do you do? And it's every last thing that I used in 23 years just to progress deals and be successful, even hiring, interviewing, that type of thing. Yeah, there's so much going on back there. And what I really like is, as I said, one of the things, you can take a lot of action without needing the tech stack. Yeah, the tech stack is great. And if you use it correct, and a lot of people don't, which I like that you touch on that as well.
You spoke about the law of 900. I thought that was a pretty nice one. For people who aren't familiar with it, maybe you could elaborate. Well, I just create my own fun little mechanics, right? But when I turned maybe 38, it was, I was finally a VP of SaaS sales in one of the best companies that I admired in the mobile industry called Kachava. And I'd worked for Tune. These were sort of rival companies. So I was putting up some great numbers there. And I just made a decision one day that I'm gonna prospect every day for the rest of my life. And I've kept it going. I'm 44 now.
And so I decided like there's 30 days a month, 30 touches in that heart, it could be the same people. So I called the rule of 900 the law of 900 because Jeb Blunt had the 90 day rule. So if you even like Guy Kawasaki says, don't worry, be crappy. So even if you just add people on LinkedIn or send thoughts bumps or do anything, it's just like athletics where consistency wins, right? So if you run a 5K every Saturday, you're not gonna be in the same shape as somebody that exercises every day, right? So yeah, that's that one.
It's just helpful. It's like a toothbrush theory. We all always brush our teeth, but people, they always put prospecting last. And the key is the cumulative impact of a prospecting set of touches every day. Yeah, absolutely. And what I also found interesting about that is it's 900. So you're including weekends as well. It is actually every day. It's not every working day, let's say. So I'm involved in several businesses. So when I get on LinkedIn, I always tell people, and it was actually a...
Paul M. Caffrey (07:04.042)
picture in the first book, you have two hands, right? And you wouldn't want to play a sport or type on a keyboard without one, God forbid if you don't have one, right? But your first hand is always acquisition, enrollments. If you're a consultant, right? An entrepreneur, you got to create clients, creating clients. And then there's the fulfillment. And I love Weinberg of the theory of thirds is that, you know, you prospect the top third, and then you progress deals the second third, and then you close the second third for full cycle people listening.
I think it was the first person to say, your opportunities are going stale, so prospect your existing business too. Nurture them, hit them up, chase them down, dethread, like talk to different people on the threads, right? So all these little number tactics just help you have a personal guidance system and internal metrics before you hit the C around, just to keep yourself honest. Because if you aren't prospecting every day, every business day or every day of your life, like...
it's really hard to hit the potential of net new sales and it's really be great at it. So, yeah, those are some of the big secrets that I picked up along the way. And some of that stuff is so powerful. Yeah, you mentioned detreading, you know, the big, big buzzword is multi-treading last couple of years and we could get into that, but I think it'll be obvious for everyone. Detreading, how do you do that effectively? Because I thought that was a pretty nice, you know, part of your book.
I've never seen that anywhere because the old adage from the business is, break the chain, feel the pain. And it's like you've got 12 people on a thread, you've been building this deal. I remember I did a 600k deal, I got 200 emails, literally 235 emails going back and forth. But what happens is you have a big meeting and you do the demo and the presentation, you tailor it all up and then it crickets. And then you're doing the big check-in email every two weeks and you're trying to get them to respond and you're calling your main champion, right? So what I'll do is if I meet with six people,
I will try to have their WhatsApp or their text message and I'll text every single one after or I'll email them individually and say, how was the meeting for you? Any concerns, anything we didn't cover off on, right? So I've always seen multi-threading for getting into the account, but dethroning is the process of progressing the account because sometimes there's six people on the chain and the main decision maker is in Thailand or got COVID, you just don't know. And all the rest of the people can't do anything because you really don't know who the CEO of this group really is, the CEO of the problem.
Paul M. Caffrey (09:18.058)
Yeah, super useful. And what I find is sometimes, you know, you can put a phone call in, you get on WhatsApp and you want to find out who's for your deal, who doesn't care and who's against it. You know, and again, you can kind of get a feel for where things are going. But I really, really liked that concept that you shared. And one other thing that you call out, and I thought it was quite interesting, is a lot of people don't utilize their tech stack, or they might have sales navigator, and you call it the fact that they're not using Team Link, and you know, they could be using it more effectively to have ghost written intros and so on and so forth.
What other examples come to mind of really simple things that people can look to take advantage of that maybe they're overlooking? Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing came out of combo prospecting of blending the touches together rapidly because the way a smartphone works, so they miss the call, they see the visual voicemail, you add them on LinkedIn, you send them an email, and then they finally look, right? Sales Navigator, seeing the common connections, people stop doing this, but this is like the main...
leverage point because if you're in a big company or mid-sized companies like Tune and 300 people, right? So you want to meet with Best Buy there in Seattle. Some of the engineers in our own company knew the engineers there on the mobile side. So it was a great way to just get a warm intro through our own team. A lot of the issue right now on social media is people treat LinkedIn like it's email and they're looking for the magic bullet of what's the one message and you need to set up an organic chat where the opener of the chat is a pattern interrupt.
The other big thing that's powerful is hyper personalization, and that's going into their activity stream, seeing where they're commenting and what they're talking about, and then being intelligent about showing that you're not a bot. Because although there are some technologies like AmpleMarket that can read like streams or interact, there's still so much a human can do that a machine can't do.
Yeah, there's I mean, there's so much you can lean into even your you know, your personal experience of something and tying that into what the other person is posting about. Right. I mean, there are lots of lots of potential there. I mean, you're big on productivity. You know, you highlight the fact that we make we waste the majority of time of our day. And you've got this concept of stack ranking. And many are familiar with stack ranking when it comes to assessing candidates for a particular role, but you take it a step further.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:35.862)
Yeah, so I built all these pretty spreadsheets that end up looking like Skittles, these bright rainbow spreadsheets. But the whole idea here is I came up in the times where you just had a whiteboard or a yellow manila pad and you would just rank one, two, three. So if you have 200 accounts by 80-20 rule, you really have 40. Now, you really, if you look at a patch, you kind of have people that are known opportunities or meetings you're having, and that's kind of a zero. And then ones are interactive and twos are signals, meaning they're viewing your profile, they're opening.
And then three is kind of like Greenfield. So I create these spreadsheets and then every day as I'm doing my prospecting, I use account-based sales development, which kind of a Lars Nilsson term, it's ABM, account-based marketing flip. So I only hunt dream accounts. And Chet Holmes mentioned that too, the dream 100. The idea is you just get really intentional about your targets, who the accounts are, who the exact titles are in the accounts, and then means and methods that contact them. So I work a few accounts a day, five to 10 contacts each, that's 30 to 50.
people and then I get a next step field. And the crazy thing when I was in the field handling outbound, my CRO would meet with me and be like, where are the accounts? And I had an answer for every account because over and over again, I'd called up and down the accounts and gotten intel. It's like, hey, Acme Corp Q1, but Beta Corp, you know, there's some internal head count moving and it's gonna be next year. But the thing that reps don't get is they just aren't getting any feedback. You have to turn up the dial, push harder, A-B test, keep trying channels.
and get a no. And sometimes it's like, no, yes, maybe, but it's better to have an answer. And people don't want to burn out their accounts. So they hold back. It's that extra breadth, that extra technique, that extra approach. And all the data is five to 12 touches, 27 touches, right? People ask me how many voicemails to leave. I mean, I've left 50 voicemails for people before, and not at once, not fast necessarily, but you can never give up until you get the no or get some intel. They will eventually respond. Yeah, and there's so much to it. I mean, systematically work in your accounts
We often see people complain, my patch was too small. And then it turns out, as you say, you asked those questions and you probably don't get the answers that you were obviously able to give back then. And particularly, you know, one no from account. OK, that's one person's opinion. You want three or four notes before actually disqualifying things. One of the things you also speak about in the same in the same part is mono tasking. How do you go about making sure you do that?
Paul M. Caffrey (13:57.834)
Yeah, so I think I got this from Tim Ferriss and maybe it was for our work week or his first blog was called Experiments in Lifestyle Design. The idea is there's batching, which is as a rep, you get to work at eight in the morning, do cold calls in the morning, drop 15 voicemails, like do the hard things first, right? Because batching means save your emails till nine, silence all your alerts except the one from your manager. Don't check the Slack. Don't take in critical means like carve out time to do that.
Monotasking means the brain, like even you're doing a set of cold calls, you're like, call, bad number, I'll look it up. Takes two minutes to look up the number, three minutes. On a two-hour call block, if you look up 20 numbers, that's 60 minutes. So the key is to just leave messages like a machine or just send the follow-up emails, right? Or just do data. It's like thinking of an assembly line for yourself or moneyball for yourself and like a supply chain.
setting time in your day to work each position, to streamline that. And if you can off-source that to a VA team or get a data vendor that has direct dials or cell phone numbers, that's really helpful. But the human mind hates multitasking. So I was making progress like a team of five STRs, just myself in a spreadsheet with no automation, just a Gmail, just a cell phone and a Google Sheet because I figured out monotasking and how to batch and I was just maniacally in control of my time. It's a funny story there too, because I joined this company.
And in the first two weeks, I booked meetings with Coca-Cola, Home Depot, the Weather Channel is covering Atlanta. My CEO flew to New York and he goes, Hey, stop showing off here. I mean, everyone on your team has been here a couple of years and not getting these meetings, man, like don't make up that you're getting the meetings. And then two weeks later, I just got on a plane and started going to meet with him in person. But I locked myself in a back room. And before I even knew the product, I was making all these calls. And I remember like the chief strategy officer said, yeah, he's not really a cultural fit. He just...
sits in that pod and he just says the same thing. But there was a lot of strategy, right? Like the voicemail was similar. And then what's crazy is that company ended up flying me to Seattle and I ran their global SDR team in six countries. So I won an Elon Musk award for it too. So it just shows you if you'll set yourself on fire, let the world see you burn and really just put your head down and go for it with smart activity every day, you'll very quickly lead the pack. Cause right now people don't want to cold call.
Paul M. Caffrey (16:17.326)
They're really crushed on email and all these digital methods and trying to automate the social. Everything you're trying to automate, don't automate. Just do it, do it manually until you get really good at it. If you find streaks, then automate it. Don't start at the automation. Yeah, I mean, it's so often in particularly, let's say series A companies, they might just, we haven't mastered our sequencing yet. I'm getting a 0.25% hit rate on these long sequences that are being sent out. And again, there's ways and means of doing that. Now,
The automation piece, I'm totally with you. You need to figure that part out. And what I thought was super interesting is you focused a lot of attention on AI and LLMs in your last book. And I guess the question is, where do you bring that in as a sales professional, as an account executive? How do you work with AI? Yeah, so there's two approaches. One, there's this system called clay.com and it's kind of this integrated interactive.
spreadsheet 2.0 type thing where it ingests different data and it helps you build parameters for personalized email. And you can hook that up as ocean.io to do lookalike accounts to a list. And then you could send that out a smart lead or instantly. And those are a couple sequencers that are up and coming, but you can buy domains quickly. They can rotate IPs, they can do warming. There's just this new breed of email setups because it's just very hard to get the delivery and you have restrictions on 50 emails a day.
The other suite of companies like Copy.ai, Autobound, Regi, these are all companies that you click a button and it just writes the sequence. It just spits out the personalization. You feed it the profiles, the ICP. It goes into LinkedIn, reads the stuff, and builds it for you. The future will be a merger of these two things because it's a strong learning curve to be able to use clay.com. There's people doing courses on this and experts, and it's more like technical rev ops.
the issue if you just click the button is a lot of the GPT stuff can sound the same. So what I like to do is use like Grammarly Go, I'll use this ChatGPT straight and I'll spit out content, I'll flip it around, give it different tonality, but then I'll throw it through the Justin Michael method, which is heuristics based idea. So brevity, specificity, social proof, pain, fear, there's all these mechanics of the linguistics itself that I've pointed out that are like guardrails around the AI. So as you read these books, you'll get
Paul M. Caffrey (18:37.826)
basically advanced techniques for prompting large language models and prompting chat GPT, but then a series of constraints and refinements after the fact. There's really no push button here. So you have to master the language itself and the impact psychologically of what certain words and phrases do, the architecture of the emails and the frequency of the emails. Once you nail that, then you could pretty much correct any raw material.
Here, the main thing here is laziness. People don't want to have the level of effort, right? But the level of effort's very low. You can take 30 seconds to look at a profile and figure out, like there was this manager down in Australia and he was a champion rabbit breeder from Ireland. And no one on his team knew that and they'd all been working for it. And I said, look, if I sent you an email that says like champion rabbit, you'd take the meat. It's like a hundred percent would take the meat. I mean, it's just right there. It's a great story. So the machine wouldn't necessarily see that, right? They'd say, I see you're in marketing. I see...
Congrats on your head count growth, right? Yeah, yeah, the typical triggers. And again, yeah, like that level is so, so big. And I remember actually in my first outbound deal in Salesforce, we've gone back a long, long time, was I just spotted a CEO had the same qualification as me. So it was from one master management to another, what's happening? And again, those connections can be huge.
You speak about prompts and mastering prompts. And I think this is where people get a bit lazy. They put a lazy prompt in and they don't get one, but they kind of get, you know, generic stuff out. And you particularly use this robot emoji game. I thought it was really, really cool. So maybe you could maybe elaborate a little bit. Yeah. So if you go to just Michael Method 2.0 with the assistance of Greg Meyer, David Youngblood and Soham Sarkar, I've had three prompt engineers help me in the book. So I want to give them credit.
but there's ways that you can play games with the AI. You can ask it like, if I was going to a job interview and I wanted to really make an impact on an early stage company that raised 5 million VC and worked in this vertical, what would be some of the top three pain points to stress? Right, so you get these really cool setups like that. So yeah, it's very, very interesting.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:53.446)
I think you have to learn that it can be interactive, the whole scenario of prompting. It doesn't have to be a one-off question. You can talk to it, go back and forth, and refine what's happening in the LLM. Yeah, and I think that's super important, because it's very easy to stop at one or two prompts and be like, this is just like generic jargon for marketing. This is no use, as opposed to checking that out and actually figuring out how to use prompts effectively.
I guess, I mean, one other thing which, you know, has struck me about what you're doing. Um, no, look, I've worked with Chris Orlobe and the guys at P club to, you know, pull together a course to help account executives get promoted because that is a skill that isn't taught anywhere. And there was a bit of a gap there. And what I've noticed is the more and more I go on, when you want to get somewhere, typically you are short of some skills and that is what's going to help you.
shorten the gap or shorten the time period to get to whatever you're going after. How is hard, you've obviously founded a business on a similar principle, hard skill exchange. Would you like to share a little bit more on that? Yeah, so I really want to give credit to my co-founder again, Julian Imczynski, because she's really the inventor of this concept. But what we've seen is there's a really a gap in the ability to do one-to-one role plays and drills. And
There's a lot of focus now on training with bots and like AI coaching, and that is cool. There's applications for it, like with attention.tech, listening to calls and seeing if it conforms to medic. But because we did a series of events called the GTM games and CXO games, and we built this community hype cycle, we really had an insight into the power of human to human interaction, which really underlies all my system as well. So that's something that...
is a venture bet, you know, we're raising there and something that we'll be building out for, you know, probably a decade. And we're doing it old school, we're doing it a different way. We're disrupting that industry by making it all practitioner led. Because I even got this day like, well, Justin, I'm not a sales guru. I'm like, well, not really either, right? Because I was 40 when I started doing advising and training like this and coaching. I had 19 years in the shadows working from inside sales all the way up to VP of SaaS and
Paul M. Caffrey (23:13.922)
I'm self-made. I got to LinkedIn and Salesforce, but I worked for 13 mobile startups that not many people have heard of. So if you want to go online and get some one-to-one training, you can go to a trainer or guru and that's great. The risk is some of them may not have picked up a phone for 20 years. Yeah, it's so, so true. Even Simon Harris is someone who's been on the show before. He is a sales trainer, but he is a sales trainer to sales. And there are so often a lot who haven't in the recent past, which is super, super important.
I've got a few quickfire questions to run past Justin, and I'm actually really excited for the answers that you're going to give. So what is your number one prospecting tip? Yeah, oh man, number one prospecting tip. Oh, that puts me on the spot. Yeah, I think there's a, I would just say follow up, focus on follow up, right? Like a lot of people try to disprove my thoughts, Bob, but the majority of salespeople I see,
are only doing two touches. So in every platform, go to four to five touches, you'll be shocked what happens. So you're on LinkedIn, how many touch do you really send? Two, three, but four or five. I leave four or five voicemails. And I have people like for seven weeks, they're using my system, not getting meetings. I ask them, how many voicemails did you do? They say two, and then they do four or five, and it just unleashes. So that's what's top of mind for now. The second one I would say is that LinkedIn is not an email platform. It's actually a chat platform.
So if you can think of LinkedIn as just having a conversation human to human, never open your LinkedIn messages with, Hey, congrats. How are you? Hey, John. You want to actually put the first sentence, something that they're not expecting. Get 18 words between the subject line and the preview text on the phone. Same deal. Right? So I just gave you a lot of tips, but that's just top of mind. Yeah, that's, that is super, super useful. A lot to take away from that. Um, okay. I'm going to throw a few more tough questions at you. All similar. So you've got to try to pick what, what the best answer is going to be.
What's your number one sales tip? Yeah, just sales overall. Study or enclave in frames. I think frame control is really powerful. If you're going to hold a conversation at the C level, leaders speak the outcomes of risk, really. And so looking at pain and fear and risk and flipping things to be more negative. One is that equal business stature concept you see out of Sandler.
Paul M. Caffrey (25:35.318)
But when you see with Orin Klopp, it's like frame control and having this stronger frame. Really important to look into that. My overall sales tip, I mean, one of my best GMs, Jim Mugello used to say, germinate the seed, hold the vision and plan for success, something like this. So you visualizing the goal and how the sale will go has a huge impact on what happens. I went into a company and I said, the number one company I wanna close was Facebook.
and no one even approached them. And I got on site, we did the deal in six weeks. Within two weeks we had meetings. So, you know, think big, do two things that scare you before lunch. Go after the dream accounts and the hard accounts. I'm spewing tips here. I apologize. It's fantastic and I don't want a disruption. I feel like asking you to share the story with your grandfather, but maybe, you know, go check it out in Justin's book. You'll get a bit more of where some of that comes from.
If you are looking to get promoted, what tip would you give somebody who's on that hunt? Yeah, so I almost called my books political selling or Venn diagram selling or Venn selling. The bottom line is if you're so good at your job, they might not advance you. It's really important that you forge a relationship with your CEO and CFO. And I was always close friends with all the E-Team and every company. I had a
prismatic view of everything happening under the hood of the company. I was driving a ton of the leads in. I was working with our CEO to tap his network, to tap our investors' network. So getting promoted is about showing advancement, obviously being incredibly a job. Now, if you master all my systems and you're generating the most pipeline in the company, they're gonna give you a team. Hey, can you teach the younglings this Jedi stuff, right? So that's the other thing. If you smash it at the top of the funnel and you master opening,
should master full cycle and closing, you'll always work. They can't really cut you. They start doing cutbacks or thinking, but hey, we can't really let Paul go. He's bringing in all the logos in the new meetings, right? So another thing for just any STRs out there, he's like the purpose of everything we're doing is to create a customer and a happy customer and keeping that in mind. But sometimes the vanity metrics along the way, it's like, look how many meetings I got, look at the opportunities I have. And like none of that means anything if it's not a great customer at the end of the day who installs it. So the sale doesn't happen.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:55.378)
until the software is set up right in the prospect's company and they're seeing three X return. I even had a manager once who said he wouldn't even cash his commission check until that moment when they put his in brokerage account. Like you gotta wait all the way until they're saying like, this stuff's great, we're seeing the ROI, right? Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, avoid, you know, that way no clawback comes your way. So that's super cool. There's a lot of great tips there. This is gonna be an even harder question to answer.
What sales books do you recommend people check out? Yeah, so my favorite sales books of all time, I got to give a shout out to Tony J Hughes and the Joshua Principle, which was the book I discovered, I love that. Made me reach out to him across the ocean. And then I would say books by Jim Holden, New Power Base Selling, and then Jeff Tull, which is Mastering the Complex Sale, and then Mike Bosworth, What Great Sales People Do. I've read hundreds, I'll have a syllabus I can share with you.
But those to me are so fascinating. Another one called the Science of Selling or Science of Sales by David Huffield, where it took him 10 years to write it. There's a ton of experiments. My advice to everyone listening, even though I'm known for top funnel is, look for the answers in the full cycle in negotiations, strategic selling, in old dusty books, because the human mind hasn't changed. The first title for my book was gonna be 2010, because, or maybe like 1910, I debated, because the exact brain.
in 1910 is now. And that's why Todd Caponi's work is so cool because he finds cutting edge sales tactics from 1905 or 1887. We've been doing this stuff for years, right? So think micro and macro and look for those old school strategic and political inspired sales methodologies that are timeless like spin and challenger and bring that into the top funnel and you'll just do a lot better mastering psychology from the word go.
Paul M. Caffrey (29:49.762)
And his new one, Pre-Swayzion, that's what I've got. There is so much there. And yeah, Todd Capone's stuff is fantastic. He was on episode one. And yet his insights on LinkedIn are just phenomenal. Art or Sheldon, all that stuff that he's sharing. That could be applicable now, right? But yeah, I really think that because he had the psychology to guiding principles, it still rings true. So really, really useful.
I am one, I, another, one question that pops to mind is when it comes to sales preparation and getting ready, you know, to take things on, you know, what, what does doing the work before the work look like in your world, Justin? I've been lucky for a while because I've had this amazing VA team with a data precaution task minions. So hire them. I pull this closure. I don't get paid. They just do a great job. Um, so having a team that has multiple data sources can pre-call your phone numbers, human verify your phone numbers. Can
Check API call, your email address, this you can get 95% clean data, that's massive. Preparation for me is really get a good night's sleep, have a walk, meditation. You just need to be physically healthy. This is really like a sport because you carry that into your tonality and just never stop learning and being hungry and reading and you read my stuff, break it down, deconstruct it. It's called the Justin Michael method because you're supposed to make the Paul Caffrey method. Make it your own. Just be a mini mad scientist, A, B, test everything.
And think like, you know, an assembly line, if you've got a mess on your hands, do your data the day before, build lists in your spare time. Always be prospecting, always be communicating. Every sale happens in a conversation, that's a Steve Chandler quote, and it's true. And you know, slow is fast and fast is smooth. Fast is, I forget the expression, but yeah, you gotta slow down sometimes to speed up and do the unscalable in order to scale.
Yeah, there's so much great stuff there. And we're on the eve of attraction sound dropping. So Justin Michael method three. How can people find out more about that? How can they find out more about you? Yeah. So if you just look for me, Justin Michael on LinkedIn or my author page on Amazon, you'll see it there. And thank you to everyone. I've over 600 reviews on, I've had many books and they've been selling very well and I'm grateful and even changing lives.
Paul M. Caffrey (32:07.082)
To get on the list for the next book which drops May 7th just go to sales superpowers calm and there'll be some bonuses there and You'll get some alerts from me. Just really excited about this one, man I mean it's gonna help a lot of people break through some blockages because it's really not the tactics that are a problem or even their thoughts It's really their identity their mindset and who they're being which is kind of in book one and two But I go way deeper in it. We talk about music meditation, you know, maybe I can come back on and
deep dive on that one once it's out. Yeah, absolutely. And I can't wait to get it because mindset is the number one thing that we need to fix above all else. So I knew it's gonna be very, very successful. Justin, thanks so much for coming on. It's been an absolute blast. Thanks so much, Paul. I really appreciate your time.
Paul M. Caffrey (32:56.046)
Okay.
