Paul M. Caffrey (00:00.572)
Look, as mentioned, I'm delighted to be joined by Scott Leese How's it going?
scott leese (00:04.502)
What's up, Paul? Good to see you again, man.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:06.328)
Yeah, you too. You too. And as we were chatting, you were mentioned that you're getting your website updated. And there's a lot of bold claims which are all true going to be on that. So what can we expect on that?
scott leese (00:18.474)
Well, you know, the, let's just say the homepage is going to start off with the, with the, with the very direct comment that's that says 12 unicorns, 11 exits. Can your go to market advisors say that? Oh, it's true. It's not a claim. It's, you know, I've worked with roughly 130 or so different companies and consulting basis and 12 of them have
Paul M. Caffrey (00:34.553)
Yeah.
scott leese (00:46.498)
been unicorns or gone on to be unicorns and 11 of them have now exited. And I've got a few that, um, you know, hopefully they're shaping up to, to follow suit. So I'm, yeah. Oh, you know, I, I try to tell the line between being humble, but also. Letting people know that I've done a few things, you know, I don't want to be a braggart.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:56.92)
you're sending a few more on that path. I mean, and these conditions, that's a pretty great thing.
scott leese (01:16.758)
but I also don't want to shy away from telling people some of the things that I've done. So I'm trying to, trying to toe the line a little bit, you know?
Paul M. Caffrey (01:22.018)
Yeah.
Well, I have to say it's super impressive because I was getting the LinkedIn notifications, you're obviously adding all of your experience that I noticed. And it's a who's who of tech companies that you've advised and all the positions just going in, I was like, wow, household name, household name, household name. So it's safe to say, you know, your stuff, you know, that is that is really key. So one thing that jumps out at me and when people hear unicorns, they hear large
scott leese (01:32.664)
Oh yeah.
scott leese (01:40.192)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (01:53.71)
that stellar growth, they'll probably be surprised that in your book, addicted to sales, addicted to the process of sales, I should say. Yeah. You say transactional sales is the platform for success for the rest of your life. It's very striking comment towards the start. When you wrote that, what made you say that?
scott leese (02:05.266)
Addicted to the process, yeah.
scott leese (02:21.47)
Well, one of the reasons that I wrote that, that book, not, not the only reason, but one of them is that transactional sales has always been sort of the redheaded stepchild of the sales world. It doesn't get the respect that it deserves and it is brutally hard work, but it's like going through bootcamp. Um, you know, and you come out tough, resilient, strong, you put forth tons of effort, all this kind of thing. And these are.
foundational skills that will help you in whatever you go on to do in your life. And you know, that's kind of where I got my start. And I spent the first half, at least, of my career specifically kind of playing in that arena. And I felt like, how come nobody talks about this? You know, we deserve some respect and some credit as well. You can take a transactional seller and teach them how to do enterprise sales.
But you can't take a enterprise salesperson and take them back down to the transactional world. They won't do it. They'll think they're too good for it. They won't want to make the calls or whatever. Uh, so, you know, that was, that was why I, one of the reasons why I wrote it along with kind of telling my story of how I broke into sales and my, my sales methodology and, and things like that.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:43.512)
Yeah, I mean, it makes total sense. And in some ways, it's harder to sell transaction that is larger deals. Certainly, you know, there's less value, there's less a play, which makes it more difficult maybe to rely on what works at the enterprise level. And yeah, I can only imagine taking enterprise sellers and throwing them into that environment. What, one of the things you're very, you really share a lot in that book is the hardship that you went through in your twenties.
scott leese (04:09.368)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:09.424)
And how that helped you decide, right, I'm going to go and make something of my life. You know, if someone is going through a tough time at the moment, you know, how can I actually use that to their advantage? How did you actually go and make it happen as opposed to just meander away?
scott leese (04:27.178)
Well, you know, first of all, you have to get through it, whatever that hard thing is. It's not like I was going through these health struggles and building a business or, you know, closing deals while it was happening. So, you know, you prioritize and you kind of shut down every part of your life that doesn't have anything to do with healing, you know, whatever that word means, given what you're going through.
But the advantage that you then have once you've come out the other side is perspective. You know what it's like to go through hell. You know what it's like to face what hopefully will be the hardest thing you'll ever go through in your whole entire life.
So it gives you perspective on, is it really that hard to find a job by comparison to this thing I just went through? Is it really that hard to pick up the phone and cold call strangers compared to this hell that I just went through? Is it really that terrifying to potentially get fired or misquota or lose my job compared to this thing that I've been through? So you get this perspective and you're just like, I can kind of do anything.
It's very freeing, it's very liberating. You lose this fear of failure a little bit because whatever you do will not be as bad as wherever you just came from. So that's part of it. And the second piece is if you look at it the right way, you now have a superpower that other people do not have and that is a deep, deep sense of urgency and a sense of appreciation for each moment.
that you're in to try to get something done. When you're healthy and young and whatnot, you think you have all the time in the world. If you have disaster strike injury, health scare, whatever it is, you know, all of a sudden you realize how fragile our existence is and how fast everything can be taken away from us, right? And me personally.
scott leese (06:31.958)
You know, I spent four years in the hospital in my, in my early twenties, you know, and all these other friends of mine are starting careers and making all this money and doing all these things. And by the time I got out, I was 27 years old and I really never had a job. In my life before any kind of career. And I'm almost like, fuck me. Like I am behind. Right. And my sense of urgency was like extreme, like
I gotta learn as much as possible. I gotta go, go and get it done. And I still have that sense of urgency 20 years later. And it can be difficult for some people to be around me sometimes because there's a level of focus and intensity and an unwillingness to kind of sit back and relax sometimes because I'm like, man, I gotta get things done. I got this, I got this opportunity, I got that. And I don't know when all this can go away.
And those two things, that perspective and that sense of urgency can be massive superpowers for you and advantages once you come out the other side of whatever hell you're going through.
Paul M. Caffrey (07:39.804)
Yeah, and there's so much there that I guess being in hospital in your 20s, right, that would nearly been like being in hospital for eight years now. Right. Like that's such a formative period of time, you know, I can well imagine that feeling of, oh my god, everyone is doing what they're doing and I'm not. So I mean, one thing that kind of jumps out with that right is.
scott leese (07:52.419)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (08:04.236)
You've got this urgency. You're going to go and make things happen. You know, in the world of sales, obviously you've been very, very successful. And one of the things that you call out is you need to stick to the plan. You know, don't mess with the plan. We have a way to sell, stick with that. But I guess how do you marry up sticking with the plan and doing things that are successful while still being ambitious and still moving on to the next thing and maybe doing a few things at the same time?
scott leese (08:33.334)
Well, sticking to the process is really, is really a message to people to stop tinkering so much, especially with something that is working. It doesn't mean, hey, this is how we're gonna do things and we keep doing it that way and we fail for six months straight. That's not what I'm talking about.
What I'm trying to talk about is like, this is the way we believe works. And this is the way that is getting results. And as long as we're getting the same or better results from doing it this way. I'm going to keep doing it this way. If, if we're playing football and we keep attacking down the left wing. Okay. And the other team's right side cannot stop us. And we keep whipping in crosses and, you know, getting scoring opportunities and whatnot.
Why would we suddenly start going and attacking on our right wing? We shouldn't. We should stay on the left until they do something that shows that they can stop us a little bit, right? So that's what I was kind of talking about, you know, and this, this part of the process that I talk about in the book is, you know, how I believe people buy and how we should sell, and I don't think people care.
about your product or solution at all until they believe and admit to you that they have some kind of problem. So if I'm selling real estate leads, my pitch is going to be designed with that philosophy involved. If I'm selling sales enablement software, my pitch is going to be designed with that methodology and that process involved. And again, as long as those things are getting the results that we're looking for,
We don't want to tweak it. We don't want to change it. How many times have you seen a new salesperson come into an organization? They follow Paul's methodology and his pitch and all this, and they start doing really good, right? And they're a solid producer, maybe even a top producer. And then all of a sudden they get a little cocky and they start trying to do things their own way.
scott leese (10:43.266)
They do a little less of this and a little more of this, and they try this thing that somebody else is doing who's not even doing very good on the other side of the office. And then all of a sudden their performance tanks. And then they come to you and they're like, Paul, I don't know what's going on. I'm doing things the way that I've always done. And you're like, all right, well, let's listen to your pitch and your calls. And you listen to those calls and you're like, what the fuck is this? You've changed all over the place. Why did you change what was working? I don't know about you, but I've had.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:10.65)
Yeah.
scott leese (11:12.058)
hundreds of those conversations in 20 years with sales reps of mine. And so that's what I'm talking about when I say stick with the process.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:16.78)
Yeah, I mean...
Paul M. Caffrey (11:21.176)
Yeah. And I like what I've seen is the confidence that comes along. Confidence is fantastic, but it tends to become a reason for somebody maybe not to prepare, maybe not to research, maybe just go in and start. Well, this line work last time, it will work again this time or whatever else. But it's not actually applicable to the situation because even, you know, there'll be nuance in where you're where you're selling. So when I guess when we think about that, you know, you mentioned scripts quite a lot, right?
And it's something which. No, there's there could be a bit of a negative connotation to scripts. It could be a real positive connotation to scripts. But I suppose firstly, you know, what makes a great sales script?
scott leese (12:06.354)
The most important thing is that it can be used successfully by a lot of different people who come from different backgrounds and different personalities. You know, so it has to be something that scales and has the opportunity to scale. It has to be simple for new people to grasp and execute. That's the most important aspect of it. Why does the script have...
negative connotation because I think people hear the word script and they think no flexibility. Like I'm only allowed to say these words at this particular time and that's not true. If you are coaching your team the right way you're saying, here's how I think this call should go in a perfect universe. Knowing full well it will never ever
scott leese (12:59.498)
You have to know enough about your, your buyer and your prospect and their pains and problems and know enough about the industry and know enough about the. Your product and know enough about the things you're the conversations you're going to get in that you can pay attention, truly listen and pay attention to what your prospect is saying. And
You know, if they say something that prevents presents an opportunity for you to veer off script a little bit and dig deeper into something, you've got to be able to do that. But then the point of the script is to help you know how to transition right back to where you were and kind of keep the flow going. So it's sort of the skeleton, if you will. Right. You know, you might say a word differently because you're from Ireland and I'm from California, right? That's fine.
Paul M. Caffrey (13:42.202)
Yeah.
scott leese (13:49.886)
Nobody cares. Nobody should care about, about that. So when they hear scripts, people think rigidity and I don't think of it like that. Right. You think of an actor, you know, whatever your favorite actor is in the whole entire world, right? You give them a script and you give you and me a script who are not actors. They are going to do better with that script for sure they're going to know how to accentuate, you know, certain words.
or replace certain words with something that still has the right kind of impact. Whereas we're going to be like, uh, I'll just read what's on here. Cause I don't want to get in trouble. Right. And that's not the way that the, that the script is designed. Right.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:30.126)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:34.052)
Unless the script is for someone who's had 11 exits and, you know, coach 12 unicorns, then it could be really right in your wheelhouse.
scott leese (14:43.454)
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's proof in the pudding that it can work, right?
Paul M. Caffrey (14:48.044)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think I think the key point really that comes across is the worst time to think about what you're going to say is in the moment that you're saying it. So to think that you can go into this conversation and you say, speak like an actor and deliver incredible knowledge and message at the right time. Well, you probably won't. But as what you're saying is the subtleties, you're going to be thinking about what to say, where to take that conversation, that you will miss those little those cues or the other real important things like what's what are they actually saying?
scott leese (14:56.784)
Yeah.
scott leese (15:12.49)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (15:18.318)
Yeah, they're the words, but it's not really what what's going on. And so when I guess we think about that, like a little bit like further, there is there's a lot of a lot of startups in Europe to the tribe and startup community in Dublin. And sales is always, you know, it's the most important part of the business initially, because that's that survival really in some respects. And so for founders at an early stage.
I know you speak about people, process and playbooks. Where should an early stage founder start when they're thinking about getting into sales and starting to get their idea out there?
scott leese (15:58.238)
Well, I think that they have to start with this kind of playbook. But I can't think about people yet because it's my belief that a founder needs to do some amount of founder led sales and learn what it's like to kind of get the word out, the messaging out, talk to prospects, try to close a deal, both so they can validate their idea, but also to understand the difficulty of selling their product.
Because too many founders think they've built this amazing thing that should just fly off the shelf. So they can't think about people yet because you shouldn't, shouldn't be high. And process. Okay. You can sit here and analyze to death. Like, I think we should follow this methodology and the lead should route from here to there and all the problem with that is most early stage companies need to move really fast because your bank account and lack of money in it is a ticking time bomb.
for the success or failure of this business. So to me, I go to Playbook and Playbook to me means stuff like what is our pitch? So if I'm a founder, I have to figure out what am I gonna say if I'm cold calling Paul? Or if I'm prospecting Paul and Scott, what are those emails gonna look like? Or what am I gonna say in a LinkedIn connection request? That type of thing. What am I gonna say when these...
Top five common objections show up, right? Knowing exactly who's my ideal customer profile and what are the buyer personas in that customer profile. That's all playbook stuff to me. And those are all things that I think you need to have before you just start picking up the phone and dialing random strangers. Once you start doing all that stuff, then I think you can start.
with the process and optimizing all of these kinds of things. And then once you've done that and you've done it successfully, now you might get to a place where you're like, you know what, I can make this work, but my skillset is not that of a salesperson. I need to be the founder and CEO of the company or whatever. It's time for me to hire people. And now that's when the people part kind of comes into play.
Paul M. Caffrey (18:13.928)
Yeah, all makes total sense. From a people perspective, how do you find great people?
scott leese (18:23.262)
Oh boy. Well, I mean, you, you need to be building and growing a network all the time. You know, I used to say the people I want in my network is anybody that I might hire one day or anybody who might hire me one day. That's how I thought about it.
So I'm sort of looking across the table saying, these people might belong in my organization working for me. And I'm looking to the other side of the table saying, I want these people as paying customers or paying clients of mine. That's a really broad scope. And I kind of do that intentionally. How am I gonna find good engineers if I don't have any in my network? Well, I have to pay.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:04.155)
Yeah.
scott leese (19:10.074)
somebody else who has a big network to find them. And that's a costly proposition, especially in the beginning when you don't have any money. You know, how am I gonna find good salespeople if I don't have any of my network? Well, you're gonna have to rely on recruiter, right? So number one, build a network. You can do that actively on places like LinkedIn. Number two, get involved in different communities specific to a particular discipline like sales.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:16.037)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, yeah.
scott leese (19:39.878)
also an act of building your network, but it's a place where salespeople hang out and you can find them there. And then, you know, have advisors, have investors, you know, have friends who have been there and done this kind of thing before who might know somebody and ask them for referrals. And know, you know, have an idea of what you're looking for as well before you just say, hey, Paul, do you know any good salespeople? Because the question is more nuanced than that.
It's like, oh yes, but are they enterprise people or transactional people? Are they startup people or are they big, huge corporation people? Do they cost 50,000 pounds a year or 5 million pounds a year? Like we're all over the map. So, you know, know what you're looking for and try to give the people trying to help you some specifics that they can work with.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:33.356)
Yeah, there's so much there. And I mean, you touched upon advisors there. And this is always something that comes up. Well, when should I bring in advisors? What's the right time? And, you know, should they get equity? Should I just pay them up front? Let's say someone's scaling to a million or they're just there or thereabouts and they're starting to hire a few salespeople.
What do you advise founders do in that situation? Hold off, get the right person in. And what criteria should they use to decide who that right person is?
scott leese (21:05.806)
Well, it's a few different questions there. I mean, when to get an advisor? I don't know that it's ever too soon to have an advisor. It can be too soon to have an advisor if you're compensating them in ways that are not sustainable. So if you started a product yesterday, built a product yesterday, built a company yesterday and you've raised no money and you're trying to pay this advisor 10,000 pounds a month,
You might go broke before they ever actually have a chance to make an impact. But if you're just giving them some equity, that doesn't cost you anything. You know, the equity is like a lottery ticket, if we're being honest. So I got to wait seven to 10 years and maybe this thing will turn into something and maybe it won't. So I tend to think that founders hold on to equity a little bit too much. You know, they, they dream big and they think they're going to sell this business for $8 billion and. You know,
Paul M. Caffrey (21:48.622)
Yep.
scott leese (22:04.402)
A thousand shares is going to be worth a million bucks to this person. And Paul doesn't deserve a million bucks as an advisor. It's like, dude, stop. Let's be realistic for a second. The odds of that happening are not very high. Right. So you can give out equity people to people in the beginning and not have to pay them any cash. That's a pretty good deal. Right. But if you don't want to give out equity, no worries, you know, find a, find a cash.
compensation amount that makes sense. It doesn't stress you and the company. And it's fair, you know, commensurate with the person's, you know, career and results and experience and all that kind of stuff. You know, how do you find one? It's becoming more challenging to be honest with you, you know, because for every person who has been doing this advisory consulting game for a while who...
You know, spent 20 years in the trenches and, and it has big success. There's some kid out there with six minutes of experience and six million social media followers, you know, spouting off, getting all sorts of attention and saying that they can solve all of your problems. And, you know, maybe some of them can, but the odds seem really, really small to me, you know? So.
I think you better find somebody who's been there and done that a few times, not just once. I think they need to have been a successful operator multiple times, getting the outcomes that you're after. I think they need to have been a successful advisor multiple times, getting the outcomes that you're after. And I think you have to gel with that person. You have to, you know, want to talk to them, enjoy talking to them.
both on a personal level and a professional level. I think the connection is really important in order to make the relationship thrive. I think they need to be accessible, communicative, responsive and fast, getting back to you if you have questions for them. These are the things that I tell people to pay attention to.
Paul M. Caffrey (24:20.236)
Yeah, there are so many there. And so I guess from that, you've scaled so many sales teams. Like you've hired a lot of salespeople, a lot of salespeople who listen to this. What what makes an elite sales performer in your view, Scott? You know, how can they improve? How can they get to that?
scott leese (24:43.114)
Well, a lot of it has to do with commitment level and, you know, this kind of cliche, cliched saying of how bad do you want to make it happen? You know, you want to be successful, but that means you have to sacrifice other things and you want to be Uber successful. That means you have to sacrifice even more other things. Oh, you've got to become a student of the game. Number one. Meaning.
You're getting coached and learning in your job. Great. But where are you learning outside of your job? And how much time are you spending outside of your job learning? How often are you having conversations that are work related, even with people that you don't work with? Are you looking at all of your life through a lens of
You know, sales or through a lens of marketing, are you analyzing opportunities all over the place? Are you practicing? Are you open to feedback and coaching? Are you willing to go the extra mile and even pay for that type of extra coaching potentially, um, you know, the hours that you put in, I still believe is, is very important. Um, and I think you also have to be very honest with yourself and be very self-aware.
Put your learn how to put yourself in a position for success. Right. What I mean by that is, you know, I'm not a very patient person just in general. I got a high sense of urgency, a motor that doesn't quit. So the idea to me of working sales cycles that are two years long and closing a couple deals a year, like that is my hell. Right.
So I could sign myself up for that because I'm getting paid a lot or whatever, but I'm actually putting myself in a position likely to fail versus coming down market where deal cycles are faster. There is a higher sense of urgency and whatnot. And I get a sense of fulfillment because I'm closing more deals. That makes me feel better about myself. That's being self-aware and putting yourself in an environment to succeed. If you're somebody who needs tons of structure,
scott leese (27:03.682)
and process and things are all figured out already, then you belong in a big corporate organization, not a very early stage startup. Yet all the time I see people who want all this structure go take early stage startup roles and fail. It's because they're not being honest with themselves and they don't know how to put themselves in a position to succeed. All of these things...
kind of add up to somebody who has the ability to become elite.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:38.096)
OK, and. One one thing you mentioned there is investing in yourself outside hours, going and doing, you know, different, you know, meeting different people, get into new environments. I mean, we were actually chatting, we were chatting about a Donald O'Riordan who's been at your surf and sales events, which another Irish guy all over the place. I'm guessing those are the sorts
scott leese (27:59.178)
Yeah, another Irish guy.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:08.05)
really take big leaps. I know Donald certainly has since he's attended yours.
scott leese (28:12.21)
Yeah. Those are, those are force multipliers, right? Like you can go down the street to the local meetup and pub and, and talk to other salespeople and you know, there's nothing wrong with that. That that's going to help you. But if you go to a particular event specifically around other people who are looking to level up their career and you're spending, you know, 24 seven with them for a week straight, you're going to walk away like changed.
You're going to learn a ton. You're going to be motivated beyond belief. You're going to, you're going to want to just, you know, implement big, big changes in your life and all these tips and tricks that you picked up along the way, you know, whoever you spend the right amount of the most amount of time with and the right amount of time, you start to become that person. So if we look at your bookshelf behind you and there's like Dave Grohl is on there and Alex Hermosy is on there. It's like, imagine those two guys and three other people.
that we respect and value who are super successful and have a lot of wisdom and everything. Imagine those are our five best friends. Don't you think that we would behave differently than we do now? I do, right? And so I'm trying to, as often as possible, put myself in an environment where I'm as round, around as many people like that as I can to the point where I create those spaces. So I created an event.
Paul M. Caffrey (29:26.393)
Really?
scott leese (29:40.65)
20 people at a time, a couple of times a year in Costa Rica. It's called Surf and Sales Summit. Well, I bring together people like Donald O'Rourke, VPs, founders, AEs, SDRs, and we talk business for half the day, and then we go surf and eat and have drinks the other half of the day. I created a community during the pandemic called Thursday night sales, where once a week for three years, we had four or 500 people sometimes.
on these zoom calls asking me and my partner's questions about business and career and all that, a place to come together, to be around other smart, motivated people. Right. So even when I don't know where to find those spaces, I go actively create an environment to get myself around them. And, and you do that type of thing and you bet on yourself. It's a, it's a force multiplier. It allows you to.
Pick up speed, pick up momentum. If it's gonna take you 10 months to get something done, you go to a thing like that, bang, all of a sudden it takes you two months to get something like that done, right? Same could be true with hiring a sales coach or a career coach or going to a therapist could be a multiplier like that. Whatever outside help you can get, all of those things are investing in yourself and I've yet to see...
Paul M. Caffrey (30:45.03)
Yeah.
scott leese (31:04.607)
it not pan out in some way.
Paul M. Caffrey (31:07.34)
Yeah, there's really two things to jump out. I remember before the pandemic going to a sales conference and it was in London and it was Saturday, Sunday and on half day on Monday. And the buddy is like, I'm going to come along. Now, he had no interest and he went off and did his own thing when I was at the conference. But one is sometimes these things, they can be outside of working hours, let's say. And they probably should be in some respect. But then the other side is the network that you build up from this is immense.
scott leese (31:32.703)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (31:37.234)
I mean, Todd Herman is at least a performance coach, your coach is the Olympics, I don't know if you're a baby for the Olympic, the US. So Todd coaches the US Olympic team, a lot of Fortune 500 execs. And all of a sudden, because I put myself in a position to go to one of these events, I end up having a conversation with him. And the key thing is we all kind of know what we should be doing and how we should be executing. But there's normally maybe one thing that could be a little bit off that might just, course correct and get you.
you know, really accelerate your results. And that's what you take away from that, the network and that one little tip that comes along. When when is the right.
scott leese (32:06.722)
Yeah.
scott leese (32:12.762)
Yeah. Let's say I might spend, I want to, I want to dive in a little bit on your, on your point right there, because think about this 1% or this one tip. You might spend thousands of pounds, let's say 5,000 pounds, 10,000 pounds, whatever, to go to some event and be around, you know, certain people. And this 1% thing, this one thing that you learn,
Could net you a hundred thousand pounds in extra commission or the ability to land new clients via doing this thing differently. Right. So I don't need to go to an event and have this overwhelming feeling of. I need to learn one new thing every five minutes, or this event is not full of ROI bullshit. If I meet one new person who can help me in some way that's positive fucking ROI.
If I pick up one tip that allows me to execute something, it's not that hard to get an ROI on a five or 10 K investment, right? Depending on what you're selling or where you are in life, I guess, maybe it's a little different, but at our place in life, in our careers, good Lord. If I have a chat with you and you tell me, Hey, you should try this thing in terms of prospecting, you should change your content strategy to do this. If, if I do that and I pick up an extra client or two,
You're talking about a quarter million dollar lift off a what? Five, 10 K investment. If you, you've created a, you know, Surf and sales off the coast of Ireland that I went to, right? Massive ROI is, is possible out there.
Paul M. Caffrey (33:53.208)
Yeah, it's a look. It's so, so true. And and it can even just be the small conversations. I remember I was I went to a Mastermind in New York recently and a lot of people in the room didn't get to speak to everybody. Fourteen was around the table. As it happens, the day after the event, I was I was walking out of my hotel. I was going off to go meet somebody, but I saw someone who was at the event and he was there with his partners. Oh, we never spoke. Yeah, we must chat. Little conversation. We had a zoom call.
And then off the back of that, we're looking at doing a piece of work together. And again, it's impromptu conversations where you're in a room with the right people. And even from that, it's, as you say, yeah, absolutely massive.
scott leese (34:29.048)
Yeah.
scott leese (34:33.17)
Yeah, we, we call that we call those the in between moments. My, my surf and sales partner, Richard Harris coined that phrase. It's those in between moments. It doesn't even have to be when somebody's up there like teaching or delivering a piece of content. It could just be, you know, dinner time is done and we're just sitting around chit chatting or it could be in the morning and we're, you know, checking out the waves or whatever, it could just be.
finishing up breakfast, walking somewhere, small little things. It's just little conversations that are not planned. Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (35:04.341)
It normally is those moments as well, right? Yeah.
Yeah, that's normally where you get there. From from your experience, your vast, vast experience, we're going to go quick fire, going to shoot a few questions, actually pretty fast. And no need to think about them too much. Well, let's just see what comes out and where we go. So first is Scott, what's your number one prospecting tip?
scott leese (35:30.678)
Number one prospecting tip. Well, my number one prospecting tip is the most obvious thing in the world, which is do it too many people are not prospecting at all. And they're just waiting for an SDR to do it for them or marketing to produce leads to them. They think in 2024, suddenly they're too good to have to prospect. That's not the case. Every single person I know that is successful is prospecting in some way, shape or form.
I might not cold call a hundred times a day anymore for my business, but I'm prospecting in other ways. I'm connecting with people. I'm messaging people back and forth. I'm sending notes out to certain folks. I'm doing podcasts like this that create content that could, you could argue as a form of prospecting. I write content almost every day. These are all, you know, prospecting kind of activities, right? So my number one tip is get out there and do it.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:29.336)
Yeah, and I really liked and the key thing to call it was it can be in different forms. When I go on podcasts, more books sell, then more people come into my world and there's more opportunities. And it's different for different people. You know, your enterprise sales, maybe it's a case of just getting some customers for a lunch and getting some key people together or whatever it may be. You know.
scott leese (36:33.835)
Yeah.
scott leese (36:48.422)
Yeah. It could be a, it could be a, an executive dinner that you put together, you know, dinner, dinner in Dublin, co-hosted by Paul and Scott. We get, we get 15 people to join us. Could turn into a piece of business for one of us, maybe not right away, but maybe someday that could be called prospecting. It doesn't, it doesn't have to mean making 150 cold calls a day.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:06.078)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:11.596)
Yeah, absolutely. What is your number one sales tips Scott?
scott leese (37:17.214)
Nobody cares about you or your product or your services until they believe and admit to you that they have a problem. This is the sort of addiction method of selling that I talk about in my, my book addicted to the process, addicted to the process. And, uh, it mirrors recovery. You can't deal with somebody who has addiction issues until they admit they have a problem. And that's kind of how I think about, about selling.
So I've got to get you to recognize that XYZ is an issue and you're aware of it and you want to do something about it. And I don't talk about my product or my services or what I do, who I am until I've locked in on that part first.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:06.808)
Yeah, look, and with I remember many, many years ago, going into a presentation and saying, right, well, I've got all this collateral about us and company and everything that we've done, I just thought, do you care about that at this stage? No, nobody cared about it at that stage. Yeah, I assume you've got the credentials and we'll check that later. And then you can just get straight into it. So again, you know, it's key. And the other person first, absolutely massive.
scott leese (38:21.998)
I'm gonna go to bed.
scott leese (38:30.849)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:35.732)
If someone, let's say an SDR or an AE are looking to get promoted, what's your number one tip for them to get promoted?
scott leese (38:45.994)
Well, I think you need to be very good at your current role first. Doesn't mean you have to be number one, but you have to have demonstrated the ability to show mastery of this particular role. And, and then I think you have to express the desire, you know, you have to be able to articulate, Hey Paul, I've been here a while doing pretty good. I really want to become X.
sales manager, I really want to go into recruiting. I really want to go into ops. I really want to move up to enterprise rep, whatever it is. I think you have to be bold enough to express what it is you want to do. And then humble yourself to say to whoever your boss there is, like, what are the things you need to see from me that would give you more confidence in my ability to ascend to that particular role? And then they're going to give you some feedback, which
Sometimes it doesn't feel very good, right? Could be critical feedback. Could be like, well, Scott, you know, you're a bit of an asshole. So you're going to have to tone it down a little bit if you want that. Right. Um, and then you have to be able to say, okay, I'm going to go do those things. And then I'll come back. Right. So a lot of it just to me is about communicating to somebody what it is you. Want to do where you want to go and then saying, I need some help.
In order to get there, can you give me some guidance? And then when you get that guidance, you take action on those things. That's, that's the first step for me. I wrote a book about this by the way, specifically to specifically in sales, it's called from rep to manager that talks about this whole transition.
Paul M. Caffrey (40:33.076)
Yeah. And one thing I just focus on getting a list of what's needed to get to that role from the people who matter. And then to your point, actually doing it, like actually going if someone sees that as a weakness, proving that you have actually filled that. So when you're having the interview, you can actually speak confidently to that. So often people just want to have a coffee and as you as we all say, like use their personality, their charm and hope that's enough. But, you know, that's I guess a table stakes at this juncture.
scott leese (40:43.243)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (41:03.452)
In in your book, you mentioned you read a lot. You actually read a new book a month, probably even more. What are the best books you recommend salespeople consume to get better at selling?
scott leese (41:16.99)
Anything but sales books, which is going to be counterintuitive for a lot of people to hear. I got asked this question in 2011, I think, by this guy, Justin Michael, who many people know now he's authored his own books and he's, you know, runs his own, uh, sales coaching classes and whatnot. And he was interviewing with me for, uh,
a sales rep role at one of my companies. And he asked me that question. And I said, anything but a sales book. And he was like, what are you talking about? And I tried to explain that, you know, if, especially if you're not a reader or not used to reading or don't enjoy reading, it's fucking impossible to pick up some lean startup book, like I've got right there where my thumb is that blue one and try to get through that thing. It's like, you know, a foreign language or like reading the dictionary. It's not going to happen.
So you ease into it, I think, by reading about something you like. So what about like biographies of famous people that you admire? You've got Dave Grohl's biography back there, right? Well, I would read that and I would, the lesson I would get out of it would be, here's somebody who comes from relatively humble beginnings, has this like, you know, breakthrough and then keeps breaking through, does it again, suffers tragedy multiple times over.
and goes on to be, you know, in his early 50s and one of the most famous, coolest rock stars in the world. I would walk away from reading that being like, I can do anything right now. I'm like fired up. I'm inspired. That could be super valuable. It could be, you know, uh, books about like philosophy and a way to live your life.
It could be self-help book about confidence, to be honest with you. The most important thing for a salesperson is what's going on between their ears is how they feel about themselves, their confidence level, their swagger, all those kinds of things. So protecting that at all costs and investing in that at all costs is super important. So I would start there. Those kinds of things. I enjoy reading more than like Paul's sales methodology book, volume 23.
Paul M. Caffrey (43:39.712)
Yeah, that makes sense. We've got Justin. Actually, Justin's been on the show as well. So I never I didn't realize you guys knew each other. So I must ping him on.
scott leese (43:49.447)
Yeah, I'm old enough to be your mentor's mentor. That's what I say to people sometimes. I have people who are like, oh yeah, this guy Justin Michael, or this guy Paul, or whatever. I'm like, yeah, they came to me 15 years ago. Oh, good guy.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:03.712)
If you've helped.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:08.144)
Sounds like you've got a situation going on there, Scott.
scott leese (44:11.522)
I have three little dogs who are not happy with the Instacart delivery person who has just brought my groceries to my door. That's what's going on there.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:17.348)
Ah, I see. Well, I mean, groceries, though, is a good thing. You know, that's food in the house.
scott leese (44:22.582)
Yeah, grocery is a good thing. It's shout a free sponsorship for Instacart right here, by the way. Somebody should reach out to Paul.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:27.936)
Yeah. Go check it out. Now it is interesting that full, I suppose, that full circle. And interesting, obviously, Justin now is a very accomplished author. And folks know biographies. Look, we're both big football fans and there are so much gold in. Even I'm guessing you probably haven't read Alex Ferguson's biography or his book on leading, but there are some.
scott leese (44:53.154)
I have not, but I gifted that book to my dad who has been a soccer coach for most of his life and a football coach, sorry. He loved it and enjoyed it. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Even though I don't like Manchester United, I'm sure it's amazing and I should read it.
Paul M. Caffrey (45:12.556)
Yeah, there's great stories in it, obviously, from a United perspective. But there's just examples of how to actually see what people are doing and to understand. One thing he calls out on it is that if you're managing people, if you just open your eyes and look around, you can read the room and you can know what you need to actually deliver when it comes to messages or whatever. Sounds really obvious, but a lot of people, they.
have a preconceived notion of what they want to say and they want to go in and deliver it. They're not necessarily reading the room as they go to deliver. So so much nuance that comes out of that. I suppose before we wrap up one final question, if you think about sales preparation and preparation in general, what does doing the work before the work mean for you, Scott?
scott leese (45:45.25)
Yeah.
scott leese (45:59.218)
It means knowing your industry, knowing your product, knowing your process and knowing your pitch, what you're supposed to say in each particular circumstance. There should never be a moment where somebody says something that I'm surprised to hear. I should know what my answer is going to be no matter what you say. And that's the four basic tenets for me of the work before the work is.
Do I understand the industry that I'm in? Do I understand the product that I'm representing? Do I understand our process of how we do things? And do I understand our message and how we're supposed to say stuff? That's it to me. You can distill it all the way down into those four points. That simple.
Paul M. Caffrey (46:43.832)
Perfect. There's there's so much there. And if people want to find out more about surfing sales, trip in Costa Rica or find your website, which has been updated, which may have been updated by the time this is out. How can they find you, Scott?
scott leese (46:57.866)
Yeah. My website is scot And if you want information on the surf and sales summit, it's surf and sales, S A L E S.com. And you can message me on, on LinkedIn or check out my profile on LinkedIn. I've got information there and, and links to these different places. And, uh, I'll tell you what anybody who listens to this show and sends me a, a message on LinkedIn, I will send you a free copy of.
from rep to manager as a little token of appreciation. So take me up on it, take me up on the offer.
Paul M. Caffrey (47:32.708)
There you go. Super kind offer. Scott Lees, thanks so much for coming on the show.
scott leese (47:37.474)
Yeah, man. Good to see you again. Talk soon.
Paul M. Caffrey (47:39.482)
You too.
