Paul M. Caffrey (00:00.721)
I'm delighted to be joined by Kate Kennedy, the co -founder of Spoons. Kate, how's it going? How are you?
Cait (00:06.318)
Hey, doing alright! How about your softball?
Paul M. Caffrey (00:08.625)
Yeah, doing really well. It's super sunny in Dublin, which is a bit of a surprise. So where is your favorite city in the world?
Cait (00:17.338)
good question. I was raised in New York and I gotta say it's my favorite city for the simple fact that there are 800 languages spoken there, which is just mind blowing. There's no other city on earth that has that level of diversity and I love that for it.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:31.697)
Incredible. I did not realize there was 800 languages in existence. There's probably way more, but 800 spoke. So what languages do you speak, Kate?
Cait (00:41.678)
Only English, but I am currently learning German. I have my exam for it that will actually maybe even by the time this comes out, hopefully I'll have passed. If not, please pray for me that I'll pass the next time around.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:54.609)
I think you're being a little self -deprecating there for sure as you're based in Berlin at the moment. So I've no doubt you are speaking a lot of German.
Cait (01:02.766)
You'd be surprised in Berlin. It's way too easy to get by speaking only English. So that's definitely a bad habit that I'm trying to break.
Paul M. Caffrey (01:09.937)
Yeah, you just you just got to get away from those English speaking friends. Easier said than done for sure. Today's episode, we're going to focus on research and particularly account based sales. What has made you focus on this topic, Kate?
Cait (01:27.374)
That is a really good question. So I will begin by prefacing this with thinking about whether or not account -based sales might be right for your organization. Cause I wouldn't want everyone to walk away here thinking, yeah, this is great for us. It does depend a lot on the type of sale that you are running with. So for example, if your average ticket size is quite large, account -based sales makes a lot of sense in today's market. And I'll go into more about that in just a moment. That being said, if your sales,
cycle is typically more transactional, maybe a lower TCV. It's probably not for you. But with that being said, the reason why account -based sales has really picked up steam over the last few years is because we all know that there's been massive changes in the overall sales landscape. One is, of course, spray and pray is far too easy. Buyers are very annoyed by the constant bombardment of messages that are hitting their inbox and
frankly have nothing to do with them whatsoever. The other really big shift too is that we all know in today's environment, capital efficiency is key because capital is not cheap in today's world. So a lot of revenue leaders really no longer have the option to increase a headcount in order to bridge that revenue gap. Rather, they have to increase conversion rates themselves. And ultimately, one of the most effective ways to do this is to really take the time to understand who are the accounts that you're reaching out to, what's happening within them.
And how are each of the buyers that you're approaching affected by it? Naturally, of course, this is a very time consuming process, which is why there's typically a limited number of accounts that each rep is responsible for so that it really becomes a lot more conducive to this type of process.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:10.961)
So what I'm hearing there is you need to be working on bigger deals for this to be a focus. Even if you're working in a startup where you can go after any business you want, how many accounts should people focus their attention on to be successful roughly?
Cait (03:32.014)
Hmm. This is a very good question. So generally I would say this also depends a little bit on your ICP, your ideal customer profile. The reason for that is because not every account is created equal. If you are targeting an enterprise business, there's going to be a whole lot more effort that you're going to have to put in for that single account versus if you're targeting a scale up or someone more middle market. So if you're really looking, if you're talking about first a rep, I should mention rather than founder led sales, if you're
specifically targeting enterprise, I would honestly recommend keeping it at about 50 per quarter. You always want to rotate it as new signals come out about that account. However, if you're going more middle market, that number can actually increase even up to 100. So it really depends on the overall size of the companies that you're reaching out to, since we also all know that in today's world, there's no one person that's involved in making a purchasing decision in any organization. So you have to factor in mind.
how many people are likely to be involved on that side, therefore how many do you need to reach out to as well?
Paul M. Caffrey (04:34.257)
So how do you go about building a list? What tips would you give people who want to get to those 100, those 50 accounts?
Cait (04:42.99)
Yeah, first, don't make it a wish list. So what I mean when I say this is we're often infatuated kind of by this ideal of an ICP. Everyone wants, for example, to sell into the enterprise space the sexiest logos that you know. But this can actually be really deceiving because ultimately the only reason...
Paul M. Caffrey (05:01.969)
I'm just going to stop you there, Kate. I don't know, has your microphone moved or something by any chance?
Cait (05:08.942)
It hasn't moved. It might be an internet connection issue. Is it back on?
Paul M. Caffrey (05:14.129)
No, it's OK. It seems it seems fine now. It just sounded like it was being hit or bumped or something, which was interesting. No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. You don't need to. But I just I just look, I might as well call it out rather than like that just keep going for the next hour or whatever. I think it's OK now. So whatever has happened is fine. Well, there's I guess I'll just ask you that again.
Cait (05:19.022)
god, sorry about that. Perhaps I...
Paul M. Caffrey (05:37.809)
the best way to I'll catch it on the edits anyway. But how do you go about deciding what accounts to put on your list to target?
Cait (05:46.19)
Yeah. So first recommendation there is don't let it be a wishlist. I think we're all very infatuated by the idea of going after the sexiest logos in the world, but these are not necessarily likely to convert just because they're the coolest companies. The only thing that will ultimately make any customer want to work with you is do they have a problem that you can solve? So this is to say that when you're building the account list, really what you should be looking at is who has the biggest signal of an urgent, painful problem.
that you're able to make it go away. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, how do I do this? I don't actually even know how to get started. There's a few different ways that you can approach it. First, I'll talk about how you can do it if you're in a more mature sales environment, meaning you've got some data to work with. What I always recommend doing first to figure out what are those signals of a problem that you might be able to see on the outside is take a look back in your CRM, look at what were the biggest accounts that you want with the highest LTV. Take a look at that.
that timestamp for when that communication first began. Go back in time, do a little bit of research on Google. Google's really great for this, by the way. You can adjust by date and figure out what was happening in that account right before that conversation got started. That's already a really good signal there. Now, thankfully, if you also have a strong relationship with those accounts, and also assuming that your stakeholder is either still in that company or maybe you've maintained contact with them,
and it's recent enough history that they might remember, you can also of course conduct buyer persona interviews to just simply ask them directly. But figuring out what was essentially the catalyst from the company's point of view that made them realize, hey, we've got a problem. That's a really good place to start. Because then you can look for similarities for anyone else that you might be targeting. Obviously, we all wish that companies had a sign put up that said, hey, we've got a problem. Please help us solve it. That's not quite the case. So rather, you have to work backwards and
figure out what are the external signals that might indicate that that problem exists. Now, if you do not have the luxury of data, the approach is a little bit different. Where, for example, if you're in an early stage startup and you're still trying to figure things out for the first time, it's always a really good idea, again, speak with as many potential customers as possible, figure out really what are the biggest problems that are keeping them awake at night, and then figure out of those problems,
Cait (08:09.07)
who's most likely to have it in terms of, you know, firmographics and then go after it that way. I do recommend though looking not only at firmographics, but also building out that list, but rather, you know, to determine likelihood of a problem, but also taking a little bit of a closer look to about, you know, for example, what does it seem to be that their current objectives are? Like what's coming up next for them? Cause again, that's going to be a really good indication about the likelihood of a certain problem existing or not.
Paul M. Caffrey (08:36.337)
OK, so Kate, are we talking about doing this level of research across maybe 200 accounts in your territory to find your 50?
Cait (08:45.454)
Yeah, so I would recommend starting off by thinking, you know, just generally what might those types of accounts look like. So again, you can do this in the data back way, you know, thinking about what did they look like when they first started working with us, or, you know, maybe a little bit high level if you don't have the luxury of that data. And then, you know, exactly as you just said, begin with a list of maybe 200 accounts with the aim of whittling that down. Do a little bit of research, think, okay, these guys fit the profile on the surface, but...
when I really begin to do that research, can I disqualify them immediately? Or is there something that I'm seeing that makes me think these guys need to be on the top of my list?
Paul M. Caffrey (09:22.321)
OK, so you're looking for evidence in what has been sold before or you have a hypothesis of the people that you can help if you're very early, as you said, if you're a founder seller and you're seeking those trigger points. So is it around the funding? Is this ahead of a function which is just doing the department? Maybe that makes sense. Is it a shift to profitable, efficient growth, maybe away from growth at all costs?
What are other triggers that you could share with us that might help people brainstorm some triggers for themselves?
Cait (09:55.822)
Yeah, I love that last one that you mentioned there because it had that level of specificity. That's exactly what you need to be going after. Something like a recent round of funding doesn't actually tell you that much on the surface, even when you know the funding amount or the funding date, rather the devil's in the details, as they say, and what you really need to be looking into in that case is where's that funding going? What are they going to be spending it on? What are they trying to actually achieve next? So same thing too with that leadership hire, a leadership hire for the sake of it.
Maybe not particularly interesting, but if you take a step back and you think, why was this person likely hired? You know, is it, for example, a first time hire, a replacement, and what are the likely problems that could come out of that that would be relevant to your own solution? So really thinking about it almost in kind of like a domino effect where the first signal or trigger, if you will, that's going to be the news that you see, and then think what's going to be the cascading effect in that organization? And there is where you're going to find your problem. So.
Go a layer deeper.
Paul M. Caffrey (10:58.321)
Okay. And if you get the opportunity to speak with people in the company, is that something that you recommend to figure out your list of 200? You might not go after the decision makers, but maybe potential end users or others in the company.
Cait (11:10.734)
Yeah, a hundred percent. This is always a brilliant approach because oftentimes, of course, you know, we think that a problem exists, but we want to validate it as quickly as possible. So, you know, let's say that you're selling a sales solution. Obviously, you know, it's great if you can hear directly from a CRO or whomever that that problem does indeed exist, but let's be honest, they're probably very busy, constantly inundated with messages. But when you think about who in that organization might not be quite as inundated with messages, it's typically
typically going to be a bit more junior. So oftentimes, you know, when you think back even to your own career, how exciting it was almost when you started to get targeted with outbound messages. Now, of course, we're exhausted and we would like it to stop, but there is a certain period in our career where we don't get so many. So you're a lot more receptive to it, but at the same time, you've got the advantage of insight into what's happening in an organization as well. So they're really great to validate. And then that way, when you do reach out, if you say, you know, hey, Sarah and your team said X, Y, and Z.
that's totally gonna capture the CRO's attention.
Paul M. Caffrey (12:10.705)
Absolutely. And it can align to the North Star of the company's objectives or real life pain that is happening in the org. How do you recommend people reach out to junior people and organizations? What sort of message do you think someone could send?
Cait (12:26.03)
Yeah. So generally speaking, I would recommend in all cases, never rely on a single channel. So this is really true for any single level. The reason for that is you never know the type of persona that you're dealing with, the type of person I should say on an individual level. And also you never know if you're going to hit spam. So even if your domain reputation is really, really strong, things happen. So never assume that email will definitely be read. Only 50 % of them are read on average, for example.
And on LinkedIn, they could be that person that only checks it once a month. These people do exist. So try every channel that you have at your disposal. And I think it doesn't matter who you're reaching out to. It's going to get you as faster to where you need to go.
Paul M. Caffrey (13:09.457)
OK, and research is time consuming. There's a lot of work just in what we went over. How do you recommend people make research faster, Kate?
Cait (13:20.01)
I'm really glad that you asked about that. So there's a few ways that you can do it. I'm going to describe first how you can do it manually. And if you're still thinking this takes way too freaking long, I'm going to tell you an even better way. So just hold, hold that curiosity in mind for now. Now you want to approach this manually, obviously, you know, ways like going on Google, searching for the company name, sorting by, you know, most recent date. This is always great. You can also, you know, look at, for example, like the
press releases that they have on their website. You can take a look at, you know, Google the founder name. Have they done any interviews, for example, recently, things like this. Now, exactly as you said, that is still a bit slow because it is manual. So what we're actually currently building at Spoons is a way to automate that account research process. One of the reasons for this is because when you do that manual way reps need to spend an average of at least six hours a week.
on that account research that adds up, it's like seven weeks a year. And let's be honest, when organizations need to stay lean, no one has time for that. That is just absolute time sync if it can be avoided. So what Spoons does is it scrapes all publicly available data. So this includes press releases, 10K reports or 10 key reports, product reviews, employee reviews, and so forth, then identifies what is the likely business objective based on all of those signals there.
and then works backwards based on the person that you're reaching out to. So their own role in the organization, how are they affected? So this way you save essentially six hours a week for an organization, for example, what that translates to. If you've got a hundred reps, you can do it with 15 % fewer headcount, same productivity level, and obviously win a lot more deals because you actually know what you're talking about when reaching out to customers.
Paul M. Caffrey (15:04.209)
And what's interesting about that is a lot of people are probably doing that a little bit semi -automated with the likes of OpenAI at the moment by putting in a prompt and maybe uploading an investor relations report or a 10K report to get some insights. It sounds like you're going way further. And how do you know what information to scrape in and how is it organized for people?
Cait (15:29.294)
Such a good question. So one, where we're scraping depends a lot on the company scale. So for example, if you're going after a growth stage company, we're going to obviously be looking for press releases, founder interviews, et cetera. However, the due CS details for an enterprise post IPO company is always going to be in their 10 K or 10 Q report or earning call report. So this is really the first thing that we're looking at.
We also take into account what is the seller's solution, since obviously the problems that we're searching for very much so hinge on what is your capability to actually solve them. Now, in terms of how it differs from ChatGPT, there's a few things. One is for GPT, we all know you have to upload those documents in the first place. So you have to go hunting for them. It's really nice when it's just spoon -fed to you, pun fully intended. You've got it right there. All you need to do is just pop in the company name. But then also,
I think for anyone that has played around with open AI or chat GPT quite a lot knows that it's really great. It's really exciting, but it does have some limitations in the sense that it tends to think more in terms of solutions rather than in terms of problems. So you can definitely spend loads of time perfecting that prompt. Or you can also use spoons where it's already, you know, fine tuned. We've also got a proprietary database, excuse me, of verified problems as well. So there's that level of not only time saved, but also.
A higher level of consistency, which I think we can all appreciate.
Paul M. Caffrey (17:01.105)
Yeah, absolutely. That noise came back for a moment there, but I think it's gone. So that was thankfully just at the end, didn't interrupt what you said. That sounds really powerful, Kate. So when somebody has all of this research, all of this information, whether they've compiled it themselves and they've used ChatGPT or maybe they're using your solution and they've got this information, how should they use it?
Cait (17:31.47)
Hmm. This ultimately, I want to answer this kind of in two ways. One is generally, and then also based on stages of the sales cycle. Generally, the most, if you take only one thing away from this podcast, it should really be people don't buy products for the sake of it. They only buy solutions to problems. So keep that in mind more than anything. When you are reaching out or you're having a call, no matter what stage of the sales cycle, the only thing that your prospect cares about.
Is their problem. That's it. It's the only reason why they're speaking to you. They're busy. They've got loads of stuff going on. and obviously no one allocates budget just, just because, especially in today's world. So there has to be a really pressing, painful reason that makes them willing to consider parting ways with that, with that money. Now, if you are doing outbound, for example, this could be true no matter the channel. Just a really quick, Hey, this is what I saw. This is what it could mean. is this something that you're thinking about?
That's a really helpful template. So just, you know, short and sweet, making sure that you're really showing a that you've done your research because most reps don't do that immediately. You stand out very interestingly. Also sales loft has data that mentioned the likelihood of getting a response. If you follow this process is a 1200 % higher, which is no small change. Like that is a big difference. And then obviously later on in the sales cycle, once you're lucky enough to have booked that call or, you know, you're preparing the proposal, getting ready to close.
You want to again, be referencing that problem in every single interaction because that's the only thing that they care about. Once again, interestingly, too, this is from a another company. I believe it was Spodio also has data that says the most likely reason to lose a deal. The most common one is failure to identify a customer problem. So this also has a significant impact on win rates too. And I think again, when we think about the buyer psychology and the reason for this.
It just comes down to it's the only thing that buyers actually care about. So that's what you got to find out first.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:33.137)
I really like what you shared there, Kate. It's focusing on the outcome, focusing on a problem that needs to be solved. And one more thing I'd layer into that particularly important during discovery is getting to what the prospect believes to be the root cause of said problem. Reason for that is it's very unlikely that they're going to go with your solution if they don't believe that actually it solves the root cause of the problem. So.
You know, let's face it, nobody is going to bring in a researching solution because if they don't believe that that's actually the gap as regards why they're not getting meetings or not, if they believe it's we're not getting enough inbound leads from marketing, they may be looking for a marketing solution. Problem is the same. They want more pipeline, but that root cause can be way, way different. I think a lot of people tend to hear that you're looking to do X, Y and Z. We do that. And then they want to bull on and get you onto the next call, next call, next call.
I scratched their head at the end going, why didn't they convert? I followed the process. I did everything I was supposed to, but they skipped over that part. So I just like to call out because so many people will waste so much time if they don't get aligned on that. What else is important when it comes to research, particularly throughout a sales cycle? Because from my experience, most people use this to find a piece of business.
And then they forget about it and it has worked a deal. Is there anything that we should be looking out for during the process or actually do we just switch off and not consider anything at that point?
Cait (21:08.302)
you definitely want to keep considering it. And this is like a thousand times more true as well. If your sales cycles are particularly long, because especially if you're selling into an enterprise space, a lot changes quarter by quarter. So you definitely want to keep an ear to the ground on this. Honestly, you should be constantly using it throughout the entire sales process, not only with your champion and making sure that they're aware of the fact that again, you've done your homework because that already builds your credibility and really helps you stand out.
And also, of course, that you're able to provide insights into solving their problem. But as we spoke about earlier, it's never just your champion that's responsible for purchasing whatever it is that you're offering. There's going to be a myriad of people behind them. So using that account research to figure out who else might be affected, because I think we've all been on those calls where we ask, hey, who else is involved in this decision? You got a champion and says, it's just me. I'm responsible for this. Spoiler alert, if they say that.
Don't trust it. That's, that's never the case. but obviously if you're able to also ask, you know, like, Hey, I saw this is happening with, you know, product development. I'm really curious. Is this something that also maybe your CPO is, you know, also has something kind of riding on the line here as well. Just, it gives you a good excuse to kind of poke around an informed decision without merely listing off a name for every person in their organization. Cause no one's going to be patient enough to bear, bear with you through all of that.
Paul M. Caffrey (22:35.441)
What I really like that you've called out there is that research and preparation is something that continues throughout the sales process. And we think we're doing our job and we show up to that next call and we ask what's changed because we really should be doing that. However, we should also be doing the research to understand what has changed maybe outside of the room. So if there's a new investor, if there's a new product feature coming out, if there's a new hire that's come into the business, if the industry has had a big shock or something happen,
We should be aware of that. And if your sales cycle is a month, three months, 12 months, the longer it is, the more likely you're going to have those situations occur that can impact your deal, both positively and negatively. But if we're oblivious to it again, we run a great process and we don't understand why we didn't get the results. So, so, so key and credibility that you mentioned from being prepared, being researched ahead of time is, is crucial, absolutely crucial today.
Cait (23:33.678)
Absolutely. I am so sorry. I'd also just really quickly want to double tap on that as well. You're so right, not only from a credibility perspective, but I think, you know, obviously even when you ask a buyer what's changed, keep in mind they're speaking with you, they're speaking with a dozen other vendors. They're tired, they're busy, they're stressed, they've got a lot going on. They're coming in with their own agenda. They might not always think of it in the moment about a potential trigger that actually could be worth talking about.
So if you also just jog their memory there a little bit like, hey, is this actually something that could impact it? Sometimes they don't even realize it until you start that conversation. So it's also just a great way to almost partner with your champion and to show them that, yes, you know what you're doing, you know what you're talking about when you're having this conversation with them, but you can also even help them figure it out in a greater level than they would if they were alone. And that's just going to make them want to buy from you more.
Paul M. Caffrey (24:28.241)
Yeah, absolutely agree with that, Kate. And one last point that comes to mind on this, I'm seeing a lot of investor relations reports.
Net revenue retention upsells, they are reducing, they're not getting that growth, which they maybe have in previous years gone by. And as opposed to having organic growth come through us because they're happy customers using our product and service, we maybe need to go to them a bit more proactive. And research is a great way for you to discover reasons why you can actually help that organization a little bit more, because a lot are definitely not putting their hand up saying, hey, I want to buy more product. I want to increase my spend with you.
Cait (24:40.014)
Mm.
Paul M. Caffrey (25:07.409)
because of constraints that are going across the business. But if you can be proactive and find opportunities that will pay off for the company, completely different conversation. So I don't see a lot of companies doing research for the existing customers. And that's probably another area where I'm guessing you're going to see people do well with this.
Cait (25:27.47)
1000 % and this really circles back to what we mentioned earlier where people don't buy products just for funsies. The only way that budget is getting allocated is because the alternative is even more expensive, even more costly, especially today when you know, we all know that getting any budget approved in the first place is an uphill battle. So yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, again, if we think about
the value there of doing research. If you're talking about, you know, maybe even like you're at the renewal stage, if you can maybe figure out what is the churn risk based on something that's recently happened, that also already gives you a little bit of a head start and being able to think about how can I potentially counter that? Or if you see something again, that's happened in the account that you recognize, Hey, this is going to spell trouble for them. Maybe not immediately, but in a quarter from now, you can start to plant the seeds about
this is going to be a problem. We can also make that go away and have that conversation with your champion post sale too. Because exactly as you just said, it's a lot of the times, you know, we kind of think about, yeah, they've worked with us, they like us. Sure, they're going to keep giving us their money, but no, at the end of the day, it only comes down to the fact of, do they think that, you know, that money is going to translate to ultimately savings of some sort or making a headache a lot less painful?
Paul M. Caffrey (26:51.633)
Absolutely, Kate. And if people want to find you or find out more about what you're doing, what's the best way to do that?
Cait (26:57.55)
Yeah, go to getspoons .io.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:02.033)
Great. Well, okay. Thanks so much for coming on. It's been an absolute blast and looking forward to seeing how the company goes.
Cait (27:08.64)
Awesome, thank you, Paul. Have a good one.
